Posted on: Wednesday, March 21st, 2012
Posted in: Featured
Comments: 746
Indoctrination Theory & Proof of ME3 Ending DLC
I’ve got a huge amount of responses regarding Mass Effect 3 Ending, maybe you are tired of talking about it, but I find myself engrossed. Chief among the explanations for the nonsensical ending is the “Indoctrination Theory” which explains away the ending by saying Shepard is hallucinating everything. I was severely skeptical so I poured myself into researching the topic and the following is what I’ve discovered!
Indoctrination Theory or no, I’m convinced Epilogue DLC is on its way. That’s either good or bad depending on your point of view.
if you people knew all the stuff we are planning you’d, we’ll – hold onto your copy of me3 forever.” -Michael Gamble's Twitter Account
From where I’m standing, I love the series so much, I hope it’s true, that it’s free, and that they never pull this shit again.
Big Thanks goes to many people for engaging in discussion with me and having such dedication to an enjoyable dissection of the game.
Do you believe in the Indoctrination Theory? Or do you think these are fans who as grasping at straws looking at Mass Effect’s Lore for any reason to throw out our current ending? If you do believe in the theory, do you think its right for a company to break off the real ending from a game and offer it as DLC (real or not) at a later date?
Big Thanks to these Sources:
ACAVYOS 21min Youtube Video Indoctrination Theory Explanation
Fan Complied Google Document
Bioware Social Network Indoctrination Theory Support Thread
Bioware Social Network Indoctrination Detractors Thread (Must be signed in)
Indoctrinated Shepard Artwork
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746 thoughts on “Indoctrination Theory & Proof of ME3 Ending DLC”
Hay if the IT is false then you can always have THIS as the ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&src_vid=L4iNJXrHA_I&annotation_id=annotation_832874&v=vG4EyfXOTJ4
lol best ending ever
lol that was actually a better ending then what we really got.
y is this not the ending its less of a joke then as it stands
I am fascinated by this theory for many reasons. One being that if true, it could explain a lot of the plot holes. Two, it could actually make me crank the score up to a more respectable level. It’s odd that throughout the game we have excellent moments like Mordin’s Sacrifice or Legion’s Death for the Geth. All excellent with the ability to grant you choice based on your old actions. The game itself is great, but the ending undermines it all. Now, if they do a Broken Steel thing, that’d be awesome. Because the DLC was well worth it. Gave you the chance to explore the Wasteland again without having to save, gave you a new quest with kick ass gadgets, and you got set up for future DLC. All of it wins. Now they should sell this for less than 800 points in my opinion mainly because: they owe it to us. If the indoctrination thing is true, it really is lame to have that be the OFFICIAL ending to the game, with no sense of closure or anything. I don’t know, I just don’t want to hate Bioware.
To disprove of the indoctrination theory we have the Final Hours App were Mac Walters talks about the Star Child/Reapers:
“Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation “High level”. Give you the details that you need to know, but don’t get into the stuff that you don’t need to know. Like “How long have they been reaping?” You don’t need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out”
And he also mentions scrapping an illusive man boss-fight because it felt video-gamey. In addition we get to see the ending notes he scribbled down during planning. It ends on the note : “Lots of speculation for Everyone!”
I take this as fact that the entire london sequence which ends in a horde mode “Defend the missiles” and followup with the citadel part was rushed just like how Dragon Age 2 was rushed.
The truth is I am sad to see the universe vanish so soon and I hope a dlc comes that provides closure comes, but it’s fine now. I learned my lesson. Videogames are still in their infancy and the writers are playing with things they didn’t understand, using tools they haven’t fully learned how to use.
That’s a terrible end. I am also very sad to see this is how Mass Effect ends.. with a shit ending.
this proves nothing given thy can just rite it in and thy may have bin going there and ea rushed it like all games thy publish
I do NOT believe in it. The child is just Shepard being linked to the Reapers since Mass Effect I. The rest is basically the writers trying to show cool stuff or being deep and symbolic for the ending.
If it were true, it would be the penultimate chapter on the disc and in the final chapter, you would have Shepard resisting it and then destroying the Reapers.
“It was all a dream” would just a horrible way to end a story. What is the alternative? That the Reapers are still alive and well at the end of the game? The DLC would not even be epilogue, it would be conclusion.
The point is that it is not an actual end.
“It was all a dream” is indeed a horrible way to end the story, and the point of Indoctrination theory is that this isn’t the actual end.
My suspicion (grain of salt) is that it’s a move by Bioware, to stick it to EA for pressuring them into releasing the game without all endings finalised.
oh that’s smart y didn’t i think of that
to me this entire theory is just making excuses for the plot holes. It also raises the question “what if you didn’t purchase the ‘Arrival’ DLC?” shouldn’t your shep NOT be indoctrinated then?
Also, the kid hides in the vents to shield himself (Shep was able to just run to the other end of a room a few minutes before), the growl is the Reapers outside which you can hear throughout the entire start of the game and he likely isn’t noticed because of the chaos and the fact that a reaper just landed a few hundred feet away from the shuttle.
And if this IS true, isn’t it more insulting? No matter what ending you choose you technically don’t finish the fight that you’ve been working the entire game for and if they planned it that way (which i doubt) that means we just payed for an incomplete game and it was put out this way to MAKE people want the ending dlc. Were the $200 i’ve spent on these games and dlc not good enough to earn me the actually ending?
Think of it this way, imagine you go to see the final lord of the rings movie and just as Frodo holds the ring over mount doom the credits roll, after the credits you see a message “Frodo has become legend, buy the upcoming DVD to find out what happens!” You’d be pissed.
(That was a little messy) My point being that if it’s incorrect it just means the messed up and made a dumb ending, if it’s true it means that they did it to get more money out of us.
Mass Effect is my favorite game series and probably becose of that i refuse to belive the Indoctrination Theory maybe do to a wishfull thinking that BioWare is no trying to piss of the fans. I myself hawe already made de disizion not to finish the game (stop playing after Cerberus Main Baise) becouse the way i see it the ending is an insult to the franchise – I wuld hawe acepted a sad ending (reapers fall but Shepard Dies in the proces – if that was the case well in Dragon Age if you die at the end u get a Heros Funeral, By all rights if Shepard Died wfile bringing down the reapers Giwing him a Popes Funeral wuld not be enogh) after the Thanes death i was ready to acept that ofcourse a happy ending would hawe bean the best but some how i cant see that happening these days.
Returning to my point the ending is BS that tops eaven the “Talis Hace” in “What the hell where u thinking” department.
Holy shit. If THAT is true than its an fucking epic story. I never played the Mass Effect franchise because im so bored of the lack of creativity of games these days. but this video made very interesting for me.
The indocrination theory is certainly compelling but one problem that I saw with your explanation is the eyes. You were saying about the glowing eyes of indoctrinated people and showed the illusive man as an example. But if you look through mass effect 2 the illusive man’s eyes were always like that and it seems doubtful that he was indoctrinated at that point, though I’m sure someone would come up with all these theories that he was and all the battles and traps with the collectors was some way to get shepard to be captured. But even then the illusive man stopped the shadow broker from giving over shepards body to the collectors, which suggests he didnt want the collectors to have him. I personally think the eyes are just synthetic and shepard is part synthetic now from his rebirth so it is entirely possible his eyes were altered too and the glowing in the ending might just be some random effect that has no real plot significance. Or at least this is what it seems to me.
The eyes are also a little iffy for me, but it’s consistent, considering Saren also had those eyes. It could be that the Illusive man had been experimenting with Reaper tech/indoctrination all that time ago after recovering Saren. And the eyes really aren’t a big thing or me.
What really does push me into thinking indoctrination is the level of artistic detail in the Anderson/Illusive man confrontation, with the same dreamlike effects and feel despite it serving no purpose at all besides actually calling back to “Oily Shadows” and the dreams
Wait where am I getting this Saren thing. what the heck…
Sorry. The eyes are indeed a stretch, but it’s a stretch that is adding to a pile of artistic and deliberate choices.
Ooh right the eyes, Joker during the Synthesis ending actually also has those very same eyes. Which may indicate that the Illusive man has been indoctrinated quite a while ago. His entire plan is Saren’s taken up a notch. Control through combination.
the illusive mans eye’s are actually due to him being in reaper contact quite some time before the mass effect gaming trilogy even starts … this is explained in the mass effect comics (don’t ask me which one exactly, don’t have them with me right now
)
which one
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE The Illusive Man tempered with Shepard during his resurrection in ME2?? awakening his synthetic side (the eyes) or the indoctrination?
Well it is stated in ME3 that stopping the Collectors was never the Illusive Man’s prime objective. More about acquiring reaper tech and finding out how they could use it.
It could have been the reapers indoctrinating the IM into thinking it would be the salvation of mankind while actually he is breeding an army of reaper forces. And he knowingly sabotages Shepards efforts in ME2 (by sending Shepard in obvious traps for his own agenda) and even more in ME3 and is very much against destroying the reapers and feels like he can control them. He even allows to get himself hooked up with reaper/husk tech knowing that it could pose an even bigger threat of reaper mind control.
Which heralds back to Saren who was under the assumption that people could work/live together with the Reapers and also got “reaper upgrades”
So it does make sense that the IM was under indoctrination for most if not all of the Mass Effect games and that Shepard was an integral part of his plans and that the Reapers were convinced that they could get Shepard indoctrinated in the end, maybe even by having the IM use some reaper/husk tech while rebuilding him.
This indoctrination theory thing doesn’t changes the fact these endings are overall disapointing & unfeeding.
Maybe, but I won’t believe it completely until I see it!
Great vid Joe!
I did however notice a flaw in this video, even though it’s minor. You say the boy is seen running into the building after we see him board the shuttle. That’s not the case. First we see the boy playing outside at the very beginning. Then he runs into the building that gets blown to hell. After that Shephard talks to the boy, then we see the boy’s shuttle get blown.
I must admit that I did start to think of the boy as a figment of Shephard’s imagination after the second dream sequences. In fact the dream sequences were pretty epic.
However I cannot help myself but think that no matter what Bioware’s intentions were the endings are poorly written and rushed. I think they ran out of time and are either planning a 4th ME or an expansion, but then again that’s just speculation.
Any way keep up the good work, and hold that line!
@angryjoeshow
I still connat understand that you give the game a 8 out of 10 with bad as seal of approval, only because you think it is all a dream!
You act like a hypocrit, because you approve of paying for DLC only to get a real ending, despite the danger of that beccoming industry standart.
To Capcom you make a angry face and shace your fist, but to Bioware, who do it even worst you are ok with it!?
You should be even MORE angry, when Bioware does that to one of your favourit games, instead of defending them!
AND even when you gave it a 8 out of 10 cause of the possibility that is a dream… then think about it, that you STILL play a dream that SUCKS so the real rating would be a 6 out of 10 cause it is more a Call of Duty clone then one of the mass effect games…
I had the same problems here, as i had with Splinter Cell Conviction, Max Payne 3, Star Wars Tor or Rift. It seems to me that all games are not individual… that start all to be a call of duty or world of warcraft clone, insteat being faithfull to their own style…
Your should rate the game of its own mirits!
I putting the burden of lausy games back on you and the people who buy these kind of games!
It’s very simple stop buying this games or DLC they stop making those things.
It’s like a movie from the cinema!
If the movie jused to be a TV show, just don’t go!
If it’s a remake of a classic, just watch and rate the classic.
Tell them that you want to watch storys about the people not dollers of stunts and explosivs!
People its up to you!
If the movie (or game) stinks just don’t go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnHfWdlCaQk
Are you actually retarded?
Where did he say that he would PAY for the ending DLC?
You know there’s free DLCs right?
Or how can you complain about his rating he gave before he even knew about the indoctrination theory of it all being a dream?
You make no sense at all friend.
joe gave it a 8/10 coz the game is good the only bad thing is the last ten mins other than that the game is great
you have 3 mmos listed do you not realize mmos aren’t supost to have an ending
As much as the idea makes me want to throw up, we’re only going to know for sure what the hell EA and Bioware were thinking when the DLC comes out.
IF
WAIT! If anderson did shoot the reaper base as Sheperd saw, why the fuck Sheperd must shoot at the Reaper again?!
Is it explain that the anderson did not really shoot at the reaper like sheperd saw?
I’d have loved if the Indoctrination theory was real. When I “woke up” after the blast, I was sure I was hallucinating and only after showing up on Citadel i thought “wait, wait, this is REAL?!” All your evidence makes sense but… I was burned by another fandom. Once upon a time characters on a certain show I loved started acting not like themselves, contradicting what we knew about them, in a way that was appalling to me, personally. Fans were laughing and saying “look, this is a plan, they are acting like that, yes but you’ll see, they will wake up any moment now”. They never did. It was just very bad writing by people who thought their show is so strong and fans so dedicated, they’ll buy anything.
But let’s assume that it’s true and we’ll get a True Ending DLC… that depends if we’ll be charged for it. If it’s free or really cheap (up to 300 points) I’d say – brilliant move, thank you Bioware BUT if they charge us a full DLC price, then that means they only care about the money. Anyway, I picked the Blue Ending and haven’t touched the game since, so I think it’s time to kill some Reaper Ass — with a different team this time, cos I took my LI with me for the final push and THEN I saw a deleted scene. Oopsies. — and hope for the best.
SPEAKING of the deleted scene, if my LI dies on Earth and then is shown on the Planet Eden, THAT would have been a dead givaway, wouldn’t it? Think this is why they’ve deleted this scene?
I completely agree with you on the DLC, if the DLC is nto free if they make you charge for it. The uproar will be all the louder and the fanbase will desert Bioware, not only will they have burned the Fans who trusted them and chose to say. “This ending was fine!” but also they will have pissed of those who went with indoctrination and stood by saying. “This cannot be it. We didn’t invest this much time and effort for THIS!” only to then be told, they could have another ending if they pay extra for it.
I think.. I think.. I think Squall is dead. Yeah – I’m going there.
Assuming Shepard was indoctrinated, how would they continue the story?
Think about it, if everything that happened after Shepard got hit by Harbinger’s beam was a hallucination then in reality Harbinger would still be standing next to the beam. As soon as Shepard beats the indoctrination, Harbinger would just vaporize him. In fact, as soon as Harbinger realizes that indoctrination isn’t working, it could just kill Shepard before he comes out of the hallucination. Not to mention the fact the Citadel would not be empty like in the hallucination and instead have an army of husks stationed there. So how would a nearly dead Shepard survive against Harbinger, get to the beam before the Reapers decide to just shut it down, fight through all the husks on the Citadel to get to the controls to open the Citadel?
Also, there’s another huge plot hole before the end. How did the Reapers take over the Citadel and bring it to earth? It was established in the first game that the Reapers can shut down the entire Mass Relay network from the Citadel but they can’t take over the Citadel if its arms are closed. And yet, the Reapers were able to take over the Citadel so if they can take it over that easily, why didn’t they do it at the beginning of the war and then use it to shut down all the Relays? That would have prevented the entire alliance from forming.
A huge insult would be that, SOMEHOW the entire mass effect 3 game was Shepard going to indoctrination and resisting it (the DLC being the actual reality of the game)
Agree!!! even if IT is true, the plot hole in ME3 is so huge only a retake of the game b4 earth can fix. Like after hearing from TIM, the citadel is still fighting instead already fallen to the reapers, you rush back with the fleet to protect it and finally bringing the finished WMD to earth to kick some reapers ass.
If the citadel is really taken by the reapers they would have shut down or denied anyone other than reapers to use the mass relay like the prothean war, and TIM suicide is such a Saren rip-off, i was like deja vu.
I want to believe badly, but after thinking for hours and searching the net and my memories, i have come to the conclusion that Bioware really destroyed the ME universe, the number of high profile employees leaving Bioware is the best proof. I know how u all feel, the sense of hurt and lost, but even if IT is true, it would not save the ME series just soften the blow.
The fans will always reach for straws, even if I do think the indoctrination as portrayed here would be incredibly smart.
The problem with this is again: you can easily get the “destroy” ending, the ending I chose was “synthesis”, the most difficult one to obtain after the perfect ending (where Shep lives supposedely). Why is it a negative ending then, if it makes the most sense?
Also, glowing eyes are not indicative of anything, as Shepard jumps into an energy beam or is desintegrated by the “control” device. In “destroy” there is no form of energy involved other than the kinetic of the blast. Also, Shep isn’t turning into a husk, he’s just being burned.
I shall watch the video again to analyze it some more, but right now it’s about as plausible as the bad writing alternative, even more so due to the “Occam’s razor” stating that a theory with fewest assumptions is usually the correct one.
The destroy ending actually makes sense under Indoctrination.
You went rushing headlong into the conflict against the reapers and as such they have not had as much time to bore into Shepards mind, to insinuate and make the commander think about other possibilities, Shepard is right there. Bucking to just kick reaper ass and throw them out. With less exposure or time around Reaper artifacts and not settling for compromise or fiddling with trying to get everyone ready.
Bullshit, why would Shepard get punished for doing more? Plus he had more than enough time to get indoctrinated already by coming in contact with countless reapers and their artifacts. In fact his will should have become stronger were he to make more effort, as in ME2 (Morinth).
Sorry, but you’re just bending the facts to fit your assumptions, never a good thing. That’s the main problem with dream sequences, nothing is certain. A pure fanfic delight.
Sorry Joe. As someone pointed out earlier that’s exactly the ending they gave you. They had no goddamn idea for anything. Now they’ll pobably take this fan speculation and retcon it to be so. Now the fanbase will have their ego stroked on how “smart” they are that they’ve figured it out.
A well done “speculation” ending has to give some confused hint not ommit everything completely. Look how Inception seeded the doubt at its end. That was on purpose. Bioware made people doubt the ending because of how completely nonsensical it was.
I do believe Bioware just pulled off the biggest troll in videogame history.
But one thing disappoints me. The real, true ending is a DLC. DownLoadable Content.
*Sigh*
the true ending is prob on the disc and we need to pay to unlock it D:
I think peeps are stupid for even beleving in a indoctrination theory, Bioware said it was thier ending and afterwards they would make another game that continued after shepard, this would explain why in every ending the mass relays explode, it would take too much change in the next game to explain why or why not the mass relays are there, it would completly change the story.
The ending bioware has left us, is not full of plot holes, but full of unexplained spaces like the ending was unfinished. not to mention they were lazy and made the same ending with different colours then changed it around a bit.
Beleving in this indoctrination theory is just a fools hope, and its a false hope thats really pissing me off right now and I hope bioware doesent use this theory because it means they just copied the fans and didnt use thier own originality to fix our issues with the game.
I really hope the Indoctrination Theory is what the true story path was intended to be. Watching this video, I completely agree with Joe and the fans that this theory has real merit and if it was the actual ending then it would have been a first in video gaming. I think it is a smart story tactic to lay all those clues out throughout the story to go back and pick them up like unraveling a mystery deep within the game itself. Also, the details as to why this theory is just are very compelling. I believe that this theory is what is going to be the true story and that it will lead to the true ending. It made a believer out of me, and I think it is a really smart and woven path of clues that seem out of place because they are. We automatically pick up on the clues but ignore them because of what we see, exactly how the reapers want it. The contrast between why the reapers give Shepard the option could be explained as Shepard’s mind battling against itself. Remember that Shepard is not just any soldier. He has that special x factor, that iron will throughout all the games. He would battle it within his mind and search for that one option to save the earth.
….BUT….
I support Joe’s stance on why the need to charge us for DLC for an ending we invested so much time in. Given the fact that players have dedicated so much of their time, it just seem like a betrayal of trust, going for our wallets instead of our passion for the game. If they were to do the Indoctrination Theory ending through DLC, then I think that content should be completely FREE. You would still need your saved data with the best ending, but it would offer players a way to get what they deserve through all their dedication, be able to pull off an ending twist like the one discussed, and become really memorable. I think if they were going to do the Indoctrination Theory story twist, and that they had this planned all along, they should really consider what is best to be able to pull off a twist without upsetting us gamers.
Frankly if video game makers start to delivering us endings in DLC’s, Houston we have a problem. Imagine if you go to see a movie at a theater & you’ld had to pay an additional fee to watch its last minutes…
(facepalm)
Everything makes perfect sense.
That nobody helps the child into the Shuttle I noticed myself.
If this was actually all planned, it could have been a brilliant story. If they had packed it into the game and not a DLC.
I agree with that if it had been planned from the start.
I would have been a huge fan if the Indoctrination had been arranged from the beginning and then after this… “ending”" you kept going for a full resolution.
Still holding out hope it’s a Bioware screwing with Ea ploy like I mentioned with my other posts.
I am from germany so please forgive my bad english, but there are a few thinks i have to say.
There is so much “evidence” about the indoctrination theorie because at some point of development it was in discussion. The final hour app shows us this.
I quote here
On Deciding the End of the Game
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped… but there was still much debate. ‘One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line “Lots of speculation for Everyone!” at the bottom of the page.’
In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin sheen’s voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.
And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard’s movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).
quell
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1
when you read though it you can even see that the end mostly likely needed to be rushed, thats why you see so much “remains” for the indoctrination theorie.
Truth is bioware needed the end to be rushed and the story writer had a shitty idea that he thought was good at that time ” i quote: “Lots of speculation for everyone!”" and what you see know is the end result. Bits and pices they allready finished put together with a shitty idea behind it.
You and every new person that sees the endings grasbs at that strow and bioware/EA just wants to save face and dont wants to tell us they fucked up.
sorry to bust you bubble…. but dont give them more credit then they deserve.
Would like to see you spread this information.
Love your show anyway
bye
The indoctrination theory is seducing and I hope it’s part of the intention of the devs and writers.
If (or most likely when) the Epilogue DLC is released then it has to be free. Because i won’t buy and unfinished game and fork out 20 more $/€ for the freaking ending and a character included in the disc. This is bullshit. NO, just NO.
Damn it I want to play that game but with this business model I simply won’t buy it, not even steal it.
Ubisoft already tried it and it failed. Why did they try this on one of their biggest license for the last 5 years.
If EA/Bio goes down that road they are going to get even more shit and they will deserve every second of it.
cool vid, also odd how shepard’s able to breath during the finale, seems noone brought that up yet. i mean the whole walkway is supposed to be in space, right? and there no glass or shield or whatever to provide a shield for breathable air…
also @joe, i’d like to put your two mass effect ending vids at the end of my playthrough of the new game+ if thats ok
I dont understand what that means? My vids are like 20mins long each. You would be putting a 20min long video at the end of your playthrough on your own videos? Wouldnt that be a massive file?
Id say just direct them to my vid on youtube or here, that would be easier.
i meant i’m streaming a full playthrough… that would already be around 20 hours, so 2 20 minute videos after that aren’t that bad, ofc i would be encouraging people to go to your site, i just thought your videos fit so well with what i also thought after seeing the ending
Some of it makes sense and some of it does not. I can’t be the only one who noticed but when you hear the “growling” with the boy in the vent it does not sound any different then all the other noises from all the reapers that are attacking the place you are at. I have played this part several times to see and the sound is quite repetitive. Also do not see how Anderson could see into the vent as he is not next to you. Although the eyes thing is noticeable (when blown up) and the trees behind you on your way to the beam is also telling. If this indoctrination is true IT BETTER BE FREE. If not just think of how it will set a precedent for future games. And it will because it seems that these companies only care to line their pockets instead of releasing satisfying games to the people who keep them in business. So many recent games have been proving this. “Oh we can sell this game for $60 or higher if it’s collectible and then charge more for the ending they actually wanted??? DONE” We can not let that happen. Unless you have the money to get boned in the a$$, which a lot of people don’t. If this is true it does no make the ending any better for me. It just pisses me off more that I payed $80 for an incomplete game. And that they felt the need to f*ck with me emotionally to make more money off of us. Bullsh*t. This should piss everyone off if it’s true and we get charged for it. On the brightside we have raised almost 76,000 in charity in 8 days. In my opinion that gives someone the happy ending I did not get and I am totally ok with that.
Also, most likely they won’t charge for the ending DLC. To do so would further anger their fan base. The fans would come back and say “so you are charging me extra for an ending to the game?” It will be free.
The Indocrination Theory is most likely true. I’ve heard a rumor that someone at a Game Stop told a customer not to return their copy because Bioware was releasing an ending fix in a few weeks. Then, I hear that someone posts about a supposed the Truth DLC ending coming out when that same source had been right about the Arrival DLC. No way, they have to be releasing an expansion to the ending. Diablo 2 did it, Prince of Persia did it, so why not Bioware with Mass Effect 3? If you combine that with all of your evidence, then it is almost a sure thing. Either that or Bioware is severely handicapped in the writing department.
Just for future reference Daniel, no one at Gamestop knows shit. Never. They will never know anything like that. Gamestop employees, especially low level ones get the same access and info is you. They arent in a position of authority and arent “In-the-exclusive-know”. The managers only get to go to E3, which all press has access to. That was simply a suggestion based on that own guys opinion, which I would have made to if I worked there.
The Truth DLC has been Debunked by Bioware, Here’s the Proof:
http://angryjoeshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/TheTruthRumorsFalse.png
Angry Joe, you know your shit man. Every Gamestop employee I’ve dealt with have a HUGE ego. They think they’re the lords of gaming and without these gods selling us over priced games, we’d be lost. They’re the gaming industries dumb goons.
Sorry, Supreme Commander*
so there will be no DLC regarding the actual ending or what?
I’m sure if I worked at gamestop My manager would tell me to say the very same thing so we didn’t get a rush of people returning Mass Effect 3.
Well, for me, it sounds like fans are trying too hard to make sense out of sloppy design and bad writing. Yes, it all makes sense when you add it all together. But no, it does not excuse the fact that the endings were so badly received, and it sure as hell doesn’t justify doing stuff like “The Real Ending” as DLC, because that’s just a dick move. Nothing can justify that, not even an elaborate, genius plot to put in a twist ending.
It seems to me that if that were planned, it would’ve been better written. Stuff like the Normandy’s Engines seem to me not a case of “this is illogical because it’s a dream” but rather “this is illogical because we’ve ran out of money and can’t make it logical”.
Thankfully, I’m not a fan of the series and, as such, I can watch this debate with interest, but with little to no emotion. Truth is, even if Bioware planned on something completely else, if they pick up this option, we’ll never be any wiser.
Somehow, I can’t shake the feeling that this was all simply a case of “This is the third game, people will buy it anyway, let’s not give a crap and figure this out later” – which is, unfortunately, quite a typical approach in game design.
That may be. Unfortunately I hope this isnt another DAII from Bioware and that there really is something more going on here than a rushed ending.
It would make sense though. They release the game without the end/DLC in an attempt to fool/trick fans into the Indoctrination. After all Commander Shepard himself does not know he’s being indoctrinated. >.> Thus releasing it like this, would be you fighting indoctrination or being played into it. It will be best when the DLC is released and fans are told this. You’re playing to see if you followed the Reapers or not. On your first play.
Even with my Paragon character I fought those other options, it felt wrong. The Renegade option seemed the best option, Hackett said so. Anderson even agreed. And I couldn’t trust the Illussive Man not after all he did. Somehow, that ending seemed the only real one. I didn’t even know that’s how we got our perfect ending either.
It’d be an amazing design really. Which Bioware has proven they are really creative and pretty tricky. Think of it like this, if you played the game. If you chose the endings that were ‘indoctrination’. If you knew it was a dream from the beginning… would you still be tempted to choose those other two options? This could have been their only sure way to make sure fans played these endings and I think a LOT of fans will be upset with themselves for dumping on Bioware for this.
Well, I usually like endings like this, but this is dickish because we really didn’t get an ending to the series that was suppose to end it.. Now they can squeeze more money out of us for not giving us a true ending on disc to Shepard’s story..
Obviously there is more coming in the way of DLC, as Bioware has stated there will be. But I SERIOUSLY doubt it will be free. Bioware/EA are a company and so they are there to make money, not give away content for free. But like you said Joe, they have almost written themselves into a corner. Either way fans won’t be happy, even if it’s free DLC as the game itself wasn’t a complete edition. It will be even worse if there is a real ending DLC, no matter if it’s free or not, as the game wasn’t a complete product. As for me, I’m done with EA/Bioware. With both Dragon Age 2 and now ME3, they clearly don’t care about the customer anymore. They just care about appeasing EA and making money, any way they can.
the way i see it, EA/Bioware aren’t stupid, they know how pissed off 90% of their MassEffect fanbase is,
the way i see it, EA/Bioware aren’t stupid, they know who pissed off 95% of their Mass Effect fanbase is, if they release this as anything but free DLC it’ll be the end of Mass Effect as a whole, and rightly so, and as Joe said: he’ll ask the angry army to Immediate Boycott!, if he’s thinking it many many others must be too xD (ignore the other comment, the webpage refreshed so i didnt have a chance to finish what i was saying and it posted for some reason)
The way I think it’s going on, take that with a grain of salt, It’s Bioware showing EA what releasing a botched unfinished ending does. Leaving all the Indoctrination stuff and writting it in for the ability to hook into and release the real ending when it’s actually finished to a much better standard.
Bioware has cred to burn and if they are doing this there will be vindication. If I am wrong. They are fucked anyway. EA and other producers (Activision) have a habit of forcing games to release unfinished to a large detriment.
I think Bioware is taking a stand as it were to show them what taking time and completing a product fully can achieve,
I really think that you’re giving Bioware too much credit here — or too little, as a matter of fact. The idea that a studio would deliberately sabotage its heaviest-hitting game franchise just to make a point to its bosses is professionally suicidal and patently absurd. Also, considering Bioware’s reputation lately — some of it deserved, some not so, in my opinion — it does not have cred to burn, and even if they did, leaving a sour aftertaste in the mouths of the vast majority of your consumer-base is a terrible idea no matter how you spin it.
No, all evidence that I’ve encountered suggests that the writers — or lead ones, at the very least — legitimately thought this was a good way to end the series. A simple case of manufactured controversy, considering Mac Walters’ “lots of speculation for everyone!” notes and the half-truths and outright lies that were told even after the present ending was well past the drawing board. Conspiracy theories may seem appealing, since people love this studio and series so deeply and want to make excuses for it, but the far more likely reality is that Bioware’s writing really stumbled hard and fell on its face.
I may very well be giving them way too much credit. It is my opinion and stems from a hope that they are taking a stand while trying to stay under their contractual obligations.
But there are thigns about this that can’t help but seem to strange.
As you say Bioware has been a bit on a downhill slide with quality release under the EA boot. But that’s another topic and pure speculation
What really makes me wonder is the level of quality given over to the entire game until those last 10 minutes in fact.
If anything some very deliberate art choices with the Oily shadows and the slow motion pacing make no sense other then to be a call back to previous situations.
On a more real world space the ending actually seems to press against the things the design team specifically talked about. The idea that it would not be an A, B, or C ending despite it currently BEING exactly that.
And that those endings being very similar (Cut down on rendering need if the end cinematic is almost identical) can be produced a lot faster. While at the same time as again doing Exactly what they said it would not do, and that is disregard everything the player has done up to that point. And even to the extent of pissing on it’s own lore by murdering the entire Galaxy.
And I know Angry Joe has said that “The Truth” has been debunked but actually all they did was stay coy and say it was simply a rumour, and rumours are neither true nor false just lack a source and validation, it\’s not true nor untrue.
I wouldn’t call it deliberate Sabotage to their heaviest series, just a buck at the end of the line. This series should have ended with this game. Or at least Shepards story, but at the same time they have pressure from EA to be able to include DLC, if anything that simple screen that pretty much translates into “You win, Buy more DLC.”Also seems to be designed in reponse to the Anger to the Day one DLC “From Ashes”
So I am Hoping Indoctrination is true, and that this was a gambit hatched from being frustrated after being pressured and pushed to release on a release date when not ready, while doing as much work as possible to leave room to tie in a real ending.
This of course has blown up much bigger then expected but I think the next few months will really tell. If Bioware truly think this ending is really the ending, they haven’t declared it so, they have been as non commital as possible on the matter. Like someone sitting back and looking at the person behind them with that “I told you so” look.
If the fact they will release a DLC later with a real ending then they can come out and lay it on the table. Either way they can not keep quiet much longer, they will either have to sit down and declare this the canon ending or pony up the actual ending.
As has been shown this ending makes no sense in view of the entire series, and while the writing has obviously gotten shoddy at times, there is too much thought and polish in those last 10 mins to be a rush to finish an ending.
I imagine to myself that indoc theory is real. Not because it is real (it isn’t), but because it covers up some plotholes left by the real (retarded) ending.
Hate to say it Joe, but a good chunk of the things you point out that make no sense do have a good explanation to them from either previous sections of the series or terminals you access and pull information from throughout the games. However, the small pieces of evidence that do point to an alteration to the ending are there, such as the child or the sequence of Shepard breathing, etc. do really impact a lot of the theory. Overall, this could go either way, especially since Bioware has a lot planned for the game still. Whatever they have planned, I’ll stand by it, but for now I’m contempt with the ending.
regardless of if its true or not, people would rather have stopped playing just before the beam and imagined that you lost the battle, earth was destroyed and the reapers won, Bioware/EA knows this and is cashing in, if not right away but with future games.
While I admit that the fans have done an amazing job at speculating, I do not believe the indoctrination theory was part of the original intent of the writers when they made the game.
The Occam’s Razor principle tells us that the explanation which requires the least amount of assumptions is likely the correct one. Keeping that in mind, this will be a long post, and I will be addressing each point):
1. The only instance where it can be inferred that “no one saw the kid” is the 5 seconds he is shown boarding the shuttle.
If we didn’t have a crappy ending to make us think of indoctrination theories, the only purpose of that child scene would have been to add emotional weight to the war and the innocent casualties that will ensue. Make it all feel more real.
Anderson doesn’t see the kid because he’s too busy planning an evac from the area and the kid is in a ventilation shaft, obviously out of his line of sight.
Maybe the Reaper beam didn’t kill the child exactly BECAUSE he crawled into a ventilation shaft?
2. The dreams could just be…dreams, nothing more.
If we didn’t have that crappy ending, Shepard’s nightmares would simply be emphasizing on his own inner struggle with the casualties and burdens of war.
Maybe the dreams symbolize Shepard’s doubt and fear that he cannot protect the innocent from the Reapers? Or that he will likely die doing so? A foreshadowing of what is to come? His mind could simply be trying to cope with the realities of the war. And this haunts his dreams. His subconscious may be assessing his real odds for survival and they are deemed low.
3. The Normandy part is a cut scene that looks nothing like Shepard’s other “dream sequences”. Why is that?
Reason tells me that either Shepard is hallucinating in two completely different ways (one dreamy way and one cutscene-like way), or he’s not hallucinating at all, and that Normandy bit is just a cut scene meant to show you what happened to your crew. Nothing looks dreamy or suspicious about it. It’s a simple cut scene, like any other. I’d go with “not hallucinating at all”.
4. The indoctrination theory conveniently assumes that some things are hallucination, but then it also conveniently assumes that other things are real. For example, it assumes that “Our entire force was decimated.” is real, but why so? Why is THAT not part of the hallucination too?
How can you safely say what is real and what is not if the game gives you no CONCLUSIVE evidence in either direction?
Notice how the burnt armor looks exactly the same way (like N7 standard armor) no matter what type of armor you were previously wearing? It’s impossible that all burnt armor looks the same and it also makes no sense that Shepard would imagine that his burnt Cerberus or Inferno armor looks like burnt N7 armor. It just looks like sloppy work from the devs, who simply overlooked this armor detail… So, whats to stop me from thinking that maybe the devs just overlooked the radio bit as well? Or they conveniently kept it in to justify the Hackett scene? Or maybe they thought we wouldn’t be wondering about that particular detail?
5. Anderson says the Citadel is rearranging itself. Maybe they just came in at different entry points? Or maybe the Citadel rearranged and moved Anderson at some point beyond Shepard’s location.
TIM was indoctrinated, it is safe to assume that the Reapers let him come there to confront Shep. Note that TIM *can* kill Shepard in certain outcomes, so if the scene were just a hallucination, it doesn’t make sense that Shep would essential commit suicide in his head because of a hallucination of TIM. I just don’t see this argument holding up.
The ground team could be speaking about the Hammer team, not Shepard and Anderson. Maybe they didn’t know Shep survived? It is not unheard of after big explosions that military people are not sure who survive and who didn’t.
“We didnt come out the same place”, says Anderson. – Q.E.D.
6. There’s a video you can watch at one point that shows you that TIM was funding some cutting edge research with Reaper tech and was also going through extreme augmentations with that tech. Also, he is indoctrinated therefore he is a tool for the Reapers who want to stop Shepard from reaching the Catalyst. This all could mean that he has gained new, never seen before powers over other people’s bodies/muscles.
TIM is an ego-maniacal villain and wants to have “the talk” with Shepard (look at my powers, raarh! etc), but eventually can kill Shepard himself.
7. Nonsensical AI logic. The only reason I can see is that the Reaper Godchild is oblivious to his own condition. Namely, the fact that he is a *technological singularity* himself (so the whole cycle thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy). His flawed logic ensures that this destructive cycle “makes sense” to him, when it really doesn’t make any sense to us.
The main concern with the idea of technological singularities is that the motivations and rationale of a superintelligent AI would be so fundamentally different from our own, that we would simply be unable to comprehend it. So while this AI’s arguments make no goddamn sense to us, they are perfectly sound in the realm of superintelligent AIs. This conflict can never be resolved, so humans absolutely must destroy this AI, or else they will be destroyed by it. It is suggested that the goals and wants of a superintelligent AI would essentially be incompatible with humanity’s survival.
The voiceover with Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale means nothing, it’s just Bioware reusing voice actors. M!Shep and femShep cannot concurrently exist in the same game universe. Even in Shepard’s mind that makes no sense. How would he even know what his female version sounds like and why would he even think of that? We already know that Bioware has used Mark Meer to provide the voices of other characters in the ME unvierse, such as the vorcha and some of the volus. Maybe they just wanted to give the Godchild’s voice a weird, cosmic reverberance?
8. The Crucible is built by the team you put together throughout the game, but based on what previous civilizations built. They explain that each civilization added something to the Crucible, thus always coming one step closer to eventually wiping out the Reapers.
This essentially tells me that the Reapers were ALWAYS set on a course for destruction and that they were trying desperately to prevent organics from ever fulfilling it.
The Starkid doesn’t downright tell you that you’ll die if you choose Destruction, just that you are PARTLY synthetic. Maybe he’s trying to win your sympathy by showing you that you are more like the Reapers than you might think.
Also, you only survive that blast if you have full EMS, which has nothing to do with how much you have or haven’t hallucinated.
The “Shepard is no longer limping” part can be explained simply by the “second wind” trope. Notice also that he starts to downright run during the Synthesis ending. This tells me he is very close to his goal and suddenly finds the strength to press on. Practically every modern action hero is shown doing the ‘second wind” trope at the end of a struggle or fight, just look at any action movie.
9. Shepard starts to dissolve because he is literally renouncing his corporeal form, both in the Synthetic ending and in the Control ending. His physical body ceases to be, so he kind of…melts.
The eyes of TIM were always weird and green-blueish, even Joker comments on that. They always had the two circles and two dots inside. And Shepard’s eyes don’t really look exactly the same as TIMs eyes. They glow more, but do not have the two inner glowing circles or the dots at the same positions, at least we don’t get a good enough look to tell that.
I admit that Shepard’s survival cannot be explained in any logical way, on Earth or otherwise. But if the whole scene earlier was in Shepards head, then what actually happened to his body in the Synthetic and Control endings? Shouldn’t he still be on Earth regardless?
The idea that the game forces you into ONE single option for survival sounds foul to me. This would mean that if a “real ending” DLC is released, then anyone who didn’t choose Destroy and didn’t have a maximum EMS rating would be dead and unable to play it. It doesn’t make sense that Bioware would force you into one single “live or die” choice with such low rates of survival, and then expect you to but DLC content occurring after that ending.
10. In my opinion, Bioware is now committed to their “lots of speculation from everyone” goal, therefore they will entertain any theory that the fans throw at them. Even Casey Hudson has said that he enjoys the polarization of the audience on the matter and likes listening to the different theories. Hudson has also stated at some point that no DLC will take place AFTER the end of the game.
Now they are releasing confusing statements because they themselves don’t know which way to go. The magnitude of the fanbase outrage was unexpected. They might entertain the fans and release a “new ending” or “real; ending” DLC, but that doesn’t mean that the indoctrination theory was their original intention when they made the game.
All of their current tweets are standard PR stalling tactics, trying to keep the fans speculating and talking and hoping, until EA decides exactly how they’re going to handle this. This is my opinion on the matter. I hope someone heard me out until the end.
tl;dr
Just kidding. Great points, I just hope in 5 years this isn’t the ‘standard’. I suppose that’s why things such as the Angry Army exist.
thanks, i tried to be as brief as possible :p
This is the most well thought out counter-arguments I’ve read so far, you really should take this to the BSN forums.
Well done sir!
It doesn’t address everything though, and its still possible the Indoc theory is true.
I don’t have an explanation for how Shepard dies in the TIM sequence. It be that by making the wrong choices the Reapers decide hes not worth it or have sufficiently stalled him? Or maybe dying in the dream signify Indoctrination the same way Control or Synthesis Choices would. That’s really hard to counter.
I’ve also just now seen a video where Marauder Shields can KILL you, if this was also the dream sequence why was he able to kill you and what does that mean? Not sure.
Thanks Joe, I am very glad that you read my long post. …and that’s ma’am, not sir.
There’s also the matter of the grandpa and grandson sequence which occurs after the ending. It doesn’t really make sense to me. If the ending we got wasn’t the real ending, then why would grandpa have told the kid about Shepard’s indoctrination without revealing that it was, in fact, indoctrination? Why lead the kid to believe that was the end of Shep’s story?
I didnt realize. Sorry bout that. Dont they still say Sir in the military? Or maybe that was some sci-fi I was watching. Hee.
Well the kid asks for another story, and the Grandpa says okay one more – This could be the story beginning from where Shepard wakes up. If anything the Grandpa ending proves the Indoc Theory in a way. Because if these ending were all “REAL” shepard dies in all of them. What other story is the grandpa going to tell, he told it all.
Exactly, that’s just it! The kid says *another* story. Which would imply that this particular story is done. That *another* bit makes me think of additional DLC that occurs before the ending, like some sort of side mission that is only remotely related to the Reaper threat.
If grandpa were to eventually reveal the true ending, then he wouldn’t really be telling another story, he would be continuing the SAME story, right?
@joe Female officers are called Ma’am, Male officers are called Sir. Both female and male enlisted are just called by their rank, sergeant, master sergeant, etc :]
@joe – …there’s a sci-fi where they call women “sir”?
)
Exelent arguments man. can’t agree more. It’s the harsh and ugly truth.
I don`t know whats going to happen but I´m quite sure that the actuall content won`t be the end. I was about losing hope but your video gave it back to me. Great job.
Even if these businesss tactics are quite questionable I would pay any price to make that this farce isn`t the end.
I know and have met a lot of the employees from Bioware Edmonton, they would not screw people over to the point where they would purposefully charge for an alternate ending to a horribafuckus ending. They just aren’t like that, they have integrity. That being said the Indoctrination theory is both amazing if bioware planned it like that and even more amazing if it’s only just fan fiction. Honestly what i think could be the case is they released it like this to raise the hype and in a very upcoming DLC Sheppard will have to actually do the real aspect of the Citadel or maybe finish fighting the reapers in some way.
I know it’s too much to hope for ,but it better be a free dlc .
Regardless if it was plan from the beginning or not, i think the IT is a great opportunity for Bioware to save face without changing the ending, instead just adding stuff to fix this god kid AI ending, although it will still leave tons of plot hole in the ME universe, this seem to be the best outcome we can expect.
And Joe, will you be reviewing fall of samurai? i desperately need a good game to distract myself from the pain.
P.S. Remember marauder shield, he died for our sin.
I think at this point Bioware knows from the reaction it HAS to be FREE DLC. It’s possible they were considering charging for it, for example if everyone liked the current ending and there was no controversy. But now that there is, it would be a DEATH WISH to make this DLC paid, like $9.99 or something.
I would rally the Angry Army for an Immediate Boycott. I would upload whatever footage I could from the game so that you wouldnt have to pay to see the “Actual” ending to the game.
I have a suspicion that this was deliberatly done by BIoware in response to EA pressuring them to release the game without being completly happy and satisfied with all endings.
That they created this whole Indoctrination thing so they have a place to hook into when they really have finished and release it. But want to hold of and show EA what bad policy it is to release and botch an ending to such a big series of games.
At this point it’s all complete burn right now, but if my theory is correct it was a stand for how game production should happen without breaching contract since they can’t discuss unreleased content.
i think it true, but for all the worst reasons, make the most horrible ending they could so that people will beg for a brand new ending, which can only come from DLC, now they’ve set up a basis for making incomplete games and selling DLC too you that you’ve technically already own. its coperat commander i tells ya!
They might just give us the ending dlc for free (hopes, hopes) and just tease us like that. I would rather like that tbh! It makes the franchise more alive imho.
Please let that be the case though…
I want to believe in Indoctrination, It would be really cool. My problem is that it would be the best god damn thing if Indoctrination was canon and part of the game and we didn’t have to wait for a DLC to come out. That the ending we currently have would happen and then Indoctrination theory kicks in, and there’s another -24 hours resolving the actual end of the game.
But chances are it’s not so, if it is. It’s a stupid move that backfired massively, I will wait and see. I’ve actually lost the will to get my game saves ready for ym playthrough of 3. Because I don’t plan on buying the fucker till this is resolved once and for all. Either Bioware says “Yea uh, we have an ending DLC for free that fixes thigns and isn’t a cop out ending” or they saty “No thats how it ends.” The onyl way I’m buying ME3 is if there is an ending DLC for free, I’m not paying extra or even paying for ME3 at all until this thing is sorted out.
I Haven´t finished ME3 yet but those theories sound very interresting so far.
I hope that ending gets retconned out, and the proper endings are free. There shouldn’t even be a need for DLC in the first place. The proper resolutions should be on the discs, available to the players right now. At this point, the ideal solution would be for a re-release later this year where the you don’t need to download the good version. Sadly, that seems unlikely.
Oh yeah double post but I forgot:
One thing that certainly lends itself to this theory is just how bad the writing was in the ending and how so spontaneously it appears that the ending seems to have been written by another person entirely. BioWare’s writing team for Mass Effect has been absolutely top notch for 299% of the combined 3 games. Then suddenly they screw up? Perhaps not? Perhaps this is still them writing as well as they always do, we just don’t realise it.
I totally believe the Indoctrination theory is canon and is being used so the EA/Bioware can profit on a later released DLC to gain the real ending.
There’s a lot to talk about with this ending. I think the indoctrination theory does hold some ground but if it does… it’s a massive dick move by BioWare and yet at the same time genius writing (provided the DLC is free). If this wasn’t their intention, I’d actually be okay with buying a new ending via DLC, because in that case it would be our complaints and requests for a new ending that brought the new DLC. If it is their intention to say that Shep was indoctrinated then sure they have to release the DLC for Free.
IF this theory is real. Mass effect 3 will go down as the greatest game ever made for me on the sole basis of story
I fully believe this theory!!!
Bioware is to smart to fuck up this bad!