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mrfool

So Joe Plays Dota 2...

54 posts in this topic

Also DOTA 2 isn't PRO it's elitist there is a difirence.

 

Please elaborate on you meaning with this statement... I can't figure out what you mean by it.

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I doubt you'll see AJ play a lot of DOTA 2, becouse he hais he didn't like it - it was too complicated.

Also DOTA 2 isn't PRO it's elitist there is a difirence.

I personaly don't play it becouse pathfinding sucks ass and allways makes my champion mowe rin a random other direnction than I ordered him.

Joe's first impressions of Dota 2 were distorted by people who didn't know how to coach him. I would also personally like to know why you're calling Dota 2 "Elitist"

ShadowSteps likes this

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Joe's first impressions of Dota 2 were distorted by people who didn't know how to coach him. I would also personally like to know why you're calling Dota 2 "Elitist"

I agree, we would like to know what did you mean with "Elitist"?

I think you are using the wrong words to describe something .-.

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Becouse every DOTA2 player who ever posted anything relating to skill or LoL, think themself master race, as simple as that.

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Becouse every DOTA2 player who ever posted anything relating to skill or LoL, think themself master race, as simple as that.

Not really, Everyone is still learning a lot (Including the pro players are in constant training)  .-.

I don't think myself as an expert or very good player, because the game is extremely tactic orientated and everything counts. Skills are developed, its not something you get in 1 week or 2 weeks and LoL is an inferior MOBA that helps you understand a bit of how mechanics work.

People who usually say that they are the best and just blame everyone for everything, are the novices, one must admit their mistakes (at the moment or later) or at least try to forgive others (hard part) cant advance, will always stay in the dirt.

Master race? Funny indeed.

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Becouse every DOTA2 player who ever posted anything relating to skill or LoL, think themself master race, as simple as that.

You should not, and cannot, generalise a "Community" based on a few personal opinions.

Also please take your toxic opinions somewhere else, this is not the place to go inciting hate.

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Becouse every DOTA2 player who ever posted anything relating to skill or LoL, think themself master race, as simple as that.

 

Really? I don't remember doing such a thing... maybe you could point out this post you claim I've made.

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Becouse every DOTA2 player who ever posted anything relating to skill or LoL, think themself master race, as simple as that.

Can I get english translation of this? Somebody?

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Skills are developed, its not something you get in 1 week or 2 weeks and LoL is an inferior MOBA that helps you understand a bit of how mechanics work.

Master race? Funny indeed.

Umm inferior? For you that might be true, but that statement is kind of arrogant in my eyes. Although I might be completely misunderstanding what you said here.

LoL is easier to learn considering all the extra mechanics that Dota 2 has. But what does the ''inferior'' mean? That it isn't skill based? That it is missing vital mechanics that are important to the MOBA genre? 

My view on LoL as a player who plays both of the games - Lol has a smaller learning curve because it cuts off all the mechanics that are really hard to understand for beginners, but it keeps an extremely solid frame-work which they used to build their game. It's not Dota anymore, it's a completely different game. It's a splendid MOBA in my eyes cause it has everything that's important in the ''Multiplayer online battle arena'' genre, it has really tactical skill-based combat, heavy focus on teamwork and chaining skills together in the correct time and place. It's easy to get into (Which is why dota players who try out league usually say ''it's easy'' and shit.), but once you play against people who know their stuff, it'll be really hard to master, and it has a lot of aspects that it shares with Dota at the highest skill-level (At the start of the game it's a bit more about individual skill and baiting out mistakes from the enemies. Once the roaming starts and teamfights start, it's about teamwork, positioning, decision making, vision, composition and everything.)

You can argue that Dota 2 has a higher skill ceiling and it's quite true in my view, but that's because there's more mechanics in the game to consider, not cause the game is somehow inferior (And LoL has mechanics that are missing in Dota 2). 

 

mrfool likes this

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Umm inferior? For you that might be true, but that statement is kind of arrogant in my eyes. Although I might be completely misunderstanding what you said here.

LoL is easier to learn considering all the extra mechanics that Dota 2 has. But what does the ''inferior'' mean? That it isn't skill based? That it is missing vital mechanics that are important to the MOBA genre? 

My view on LoL as a player who plays both of the games - Lol has a smaller learning curve because it cuts off all the mechanics that are really hard to understand for beginners, but it keeps an extremely solid frame-work which they used to build their game. It's not Dota anymore, it's a completely different game. It's a splendid MOBA in my eyes cause it has everything that's important in the ''Multiplayer online battle arena'' genre, it has really tactical skill-based combat, heavy focus on teamwork and chaining skills together in the correct time and place. It's easy to get into (Which is why dota players who try out league usually say ''it's easy'' and shit.), but once you play against people who know their stuff, it'll be really hard to master, and it has a lot of aspects that it shares with Dota at the highest skill-level (At the start of the game it's a bit more about individual skill and baiting out mistakes from the enemies. Once the roaming starts and teamfights start, it's about teamwork, positioning, decision making, vision, composition and everything.)

You can argue that Dota 2 has a higher skill ceiling and it's quite true in my view, but that's because there's more mechanics in the game to consider, not cause the game is somehow inferior. 

 

Inferior: I was meaning that it was lower in difficulty, mechanics, less tactic related and complexity of learning comparing it to DOTA 2 (Plus LoL is like the son of DOTA)

Yeah you misunderstood me. .-.

Ok on the point, LoL is a very less reliant on tactics because the factor that makes the game fun is the action it offers, its like 85% action and 15% tactics.

LoL is a good game (If you want a fast phased game), but it's community and some selling tactics that Riot take are the only thing that cuts my excitement to play it again.

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Inferior: I was meaning that it was lower in difficulty, mechanics, less tactic related and complexity of learning comparing it to DOTA 2 (Plus LoL is like the son of DOTA)

Yeah you misunderstood me. .-.

Ok on the point, LoL is a very less reliant on tactics because the factor that makes the game fun is the action it offers, its like 85% action and 15% tactics.

LoL is a good game (If you want a fast phased game), but it's community and some selling tactics that Riot take are the only thing that cuts my excitement to play it again.

I guess you haven't seen any pro games for LoL then, and saying that it's ''less than X'' without understanding it is ignorance dude. Not cool. Because I already explained the ''action'' is all thought through and at the highest level composition, early-game and teamwork all boil into a game of chess played with 5 people. The ''lower difficulty'' isn't a thing at the highest level, because it isn't easy once you play against people who actually have an idea what they're doing.

I already proved that ''less tactic oriented'' isn't a thing, only at the lowest level games can be won without tactics (And that can happen in Dota 2 too....). At high level of play, the game isn't about having a fun actiony experience, because that's not a competitive game is for. That goes against what ''competivity'' is, just like in Dota 2, you do what works. Senseless action won't get you wins in plat-diamond league in LoL, just like it won't get you wins at higher levels of Dota 2.

The community of LoL isn't that much worse than Dota 2 tbh (Atleast in solo que + there's less russians, and people won't abuse the push-to-talk cause it isn't there in LoL.), and Riot's selling tactics are questionable with new champions most of the time being OP and nerfing it far later after the champion has been bought by a ton of people. That's why it's more sensible to do draft matches, where the champion gets banned and it won't exactly factor into the balance that much in that case, and even ''op'' heroes have weaknesses you can exploit.

I don't blame you for thinking the way you do, because I know some people say that ''Lol has too many flashes and it's hard to understand what's going on'' because, yes it is more colorful and it's easier to understand what's going on in Dota 2 (Notice I said it's easier in Dota.), but saying it's less of a game than Dota 2 is the worst way to look at this. Recognize that it's a game in and of itself, and it isn't anything more, or less, because it's not the same sort of game you're comparing it to in the moment.

P.S: I'm extremely sorry for going off-topic. I just realized. But well I hope that people who agreed to Shadowsteps atleast understood the view of a person who has played both games for quite a bit. Currently when I play Mobas i usually play Dota 2. Although lately I haven't gotten too much time for it.

Edit: If you have any questions or anything to counteract my claims, then please do PM me, because the place for the talk isn't here.

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I wonder if anyone even bother to read what the actual name of this thread is. For the discussion witch is the best MOBA game pls go to "general no one gives a crap" thread. I played them all. They are all different and all have pros and cons. This is a Dota 2 section and if you want to talk about other game, then refer to their respectful Section of this forum. Also keep on topic. Maybe delete all the posts that don't have anything to do with:

"Joe Plays Dota 2"

Some Moderation is needed here I think. We do have forum Moderators right? Time to use that Magic maybe. But please just please if you want to discuss general things go to http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/topic/11538-whats-your-favorite-moba/  There you can spit all the fire you want. Leave this thread to serious people.

Oh wait, even ShotgunRaider the creator of that thread sad "Please guys don't turn this forum into a flame war.". You see even he is being serious about it.

Edited by digitalblade

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Dota is all about dedication..........hard to learn, easy to improve, a nightmare to master.

mrfool likes this

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Ohh im watching this now, This is hard to watch.

I just cant believe they didn't do any training at all, I know it would be dead boring watching in a stream but its essential! Also I just cringed when Delrith said you cant propley teach someone how to play dota... that is true for things like how to act in team fight situations, but IT is possible to teach the basic mechanics like last hitting.

I don't know if I can watch anymore of this..

Sundaecat and mrfool like this

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Well,

after watching the last atempt on with the 24 hour stream http://www.twitch.tv/angryjoeshow/b/553829339

I  give up (I'm a dota player, if I ever gave up I would not play DOTA ;). I seriously thought that Axe is the best and most manly hero we can give to AJ or Sgt Ross(also super fucking easy to play). But it seems unless you really want to play a game you will not learn it.
It's like trying to play a Military shooter but not knowing where the trigger of your gun is ...

Well Craig did his best, it was a good attempt. It will be fun to see another. Also I saw quite a high rate of new "Followers" in the twitch stream, then any of the other games. That should come in account if they follow their Twitch Statistic. I mean getting a follower on a black screen stream is something :) At least on the recorded version the screen is black for last game.

Craig if they gave you more time, this could have worked but ... 

So for next attempt consider:

Not having a bot matches.
Making the pick for the heroes on both teams.
Making first game not a real game but just for them to test out their skills and see the skills of the enemy team. Done with control gameplay on both teams not actual game.
Then have one real game with same heroes.

That is all I could think of. Making 2 balanced teams with the right heroes for the "new" guys is the core of this strategy as well as having co-responsive pool of players for the games.

mrfool likes this

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Well,

after watching the last atempt on with the 24 hour stream http://www.twitch.tv/angryjoeshow/b/553829339

I  give up (I'm a dota player, if I ever gave up I would not play DOTA ;). I seriously thought that Axe is the best and most manly hero we can give to AJ or Sgt Ross(also super fucking easy to play). But it seems unless you really want to play a game you will not learn it.

It's like trying to play a Military shooter but not knowing where the trigger of your gun is ...

Well Craig did his best, it was a good attempt. It will be fun to see another. Also I saw quite a high rate of new "Followers" in the twitch stream, then any of the other games. That should come in account if they follow their Twitch Statistic. I mean getting a follower on a black screen stream is something :) At least on the recorded version the screen is black for last game.

Craig if they gave you more time, this could have worked but ... 

So for next attempt consider:

Not having a bot matches.

Making the pick for the heroes on both teams.

Making first game not a real game but just for them to test out their skills and see the skills of the enemy team. Done with control gameplay on both teams not actual game.

Then have one real game with same heroes.

That is all I could think of. Making 2 balanced teams with the right heroes for the "new" guys is the core of this strategy as well as having co-responsive pool of players for the games.

Ah thanks for the link to the Twitch stream, I was meaning to find the Dota 2 one.

 

What I think should have happened is Craig should have arranged some of our Guild's more experienced players to Coach the games on the stream (With individual chat channels for each coach + student perhaps).

That would make for a more entertaining watch. I can easily find videos of super inexperienced Dota 2 players on YouTube if I wanted to...but I come to the AJSA for a higher standard of play and a professional approach to games (even if someone is learning it can be done way better than has been done).

I'm often reminded of the statement at the bottom of every page on this forums that mentions how "that we can improve and enhance the games we play". I didn't really feel the most was made out of this Dota 2 Stream.

If you really want to set up more events like this then Craig please do get in touch with your Officers. It's what we're here for bud.

My two cents is all.

Sundaecat and Muddy-Chan like this

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Also just out of curiosity...who was in these games? Aside from Craig.

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Btw. It wouldnt be a bad idea to invite some of AJSA Official Team to explain some stuff and go deeper into it.

mrfool likes this

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Btw. It wouldnt be a bad idea to invite some of AJSA Official Team to explain some stuff and go deeper into it.

The "some of our Guild's more experienced players" I mentioned could be you guys ;)

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I never played DotA, But did play Dota 2 in 2012. A Serbian guy that I still know today taught me the basics of the game. In 2013 I was a novice at the game, and by the end of 2013 my IRL friend taught me how to play Dota the more "Advanced way" Pulling the lanes innitiating battles, I have mastered a few heroes like Sven, Bloodseeker and Lifestealer. I've always prefered Dota 2 over LoL and always held my stand. Dota 2 just needs a MUCH better tutorial as it is fun to play.

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I played one match of Dota 2 and gave up....the game taught me nothing....i was going in blind who in there right mind wants to play a MOBA that teaches you nothing at the start? it is like giving you an advanced piece of electronics and say use it!! 

 

Also i think the people that were streaming DOTA 2 were just playing it for fun and to kill time because lets be serious with a 24 hour stream your dead tired and you are not functioning correctly to learn anything....

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Well.. I think the Tutorial is pretty good. Telling u what to do.. But many people think. "NAH! Who needs a tutorial" then they lose and blame the game.. because its bad... so sad.

Mellow likes this

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I played one match of Dota 2 and gave up....the game taught me nothing....i was going in blind who in there right mind wants to play a MOBA that teaches you nothing at the start? it is like giving you an advanced piece of electronics and say use it!! 

 

Also i think the people that were streaming DOTA 2 were just playing it for fun and to kill time because lets be serious with a 24 hour stream your dead tired and you are not functioning correctly to learn anything....

Dota 2 is the only MOBA that directly suggests you to go through the tutorial before going in playing against other players. It is also very well done.

By the way going in blind on a MOBA is like going into a minefield full of trolls and rage: you must always play with bots right after the training, find the hero you like best and get good at him, theorycraft his item build, check out the guides for him, THEN try out the PvP matches. I did the same mistake and went in blind, it took me ~500 games to be confident enough to play more than 10 heroes and my win rate was total crap.

 

So yeah....

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I agree with you mrfool, having a coach that is not a part of the game as a player, is probably the best way. However In the situation Craig was in, they had to be on the same team, same game, same time. After all, it was all about their stream and showcasing what AJSA is playing. Not really to teach them Dota 2. But it was a good opportunity to show our Dota 2 AJSA Guild. I am sure more will come. Sadly the game is not a MMO and we can't have 100 players all in the same game to look cool on the Stream. And I suppose watching a hero Farm in the Woods for 30 minutes is not that entertaining for most viewers. The other downfall is that having one new player on your team may not cause a lot of harm in your game. Having 2 means no one will be able to carry them throw it, if it was a real game. I am throw with the thought how can we teach them and now I'm thinking about how can we construct a 10 man game, that with will be enjoyable to watch to the viewers and they will still have fun with it.

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I agree with you mrfool, having a coach that is not a part of the game as a player, is probably the best way. However In the situation Craig was in, they had to be on the same team, same game, same time. After all, it was all about their stream and showcasing what AJSA is playing. Not really to teach them Dota 2. But it was a good opportunity to show our Dota 2 AJSA Guild. I am sure more will come. Sadly the game is not a MMO and we can't have 100 players all in the same game to look cool on the Stream. And I suppose watching a hero Farm in the Woods for 30 minutes is not that entertaining for most viewers. The other downfall is that having one new player on your team may not cause a lot of harm in your game. Having 2 means no one will be able to carry them throw it, if it was a real game. I am throw with the thought how can we teach them and now I'm thinking about how can we construct a 10 man game, that with will be enjoyable to watch to the viewers and they will still have fun with it.

True the stream was about showing what the AJSA is playing. But that doesn't mean the "Faces" of the AJSA have to be awful at the game they're playing. It gives an impression that the AJSA sucks at such games. I just think things could have been done much better with some planning before-hand. We knew this event was happening for a long time.

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