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Weynard

AJSA Organisation pre-release planning

45 posts in this topic

Hello everyone,

 

I noticed we've got some posts up discussing ideas for possible structure ideas:

http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/topic/12648-angry-army-organization-structure/

http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/topic/10310-ajsa-sc-organization-poll/

 

I've been working on a spreadsheet myself, but only very few people have seen it thus far. As it is, it is too early to set things in stone, but some ideas seem pretty well designed, so I'll sum things up here. This will be a mix of discussing the leadership and organisational structure, possible branches, as well as some rudimentary design on awards, ranks and unit naming.

 

First of all, the following must be considered:

  • We don't know how big organisations will grow yet. The Goons have around 330 men, 1.500 ships and about 30 Idrisses.
  • So far, we've got around 200 members signed up for DFM in 600 ships: Linkage
  • Adjusting for inactives and new members, it is probably safe to assume that that number will be a solid baseline.
  • ESO saw a massive influx of players, with us opening a handful of guilds to accomodate everyone. A rough estimate would be around 750 players (Thanks Bast!). With SC being a similarly (if not more) anticipated game, that would be the general ballpark to expect as a minimum, which means there must be space for at least 750 members in all our considerations.
  • There will be dead weight fanbois.
  • The biggest ships available at launch will be the Idris, the Javelin and the Bengal. The largest confirmed MAX crew per ship is 10 for the Idris. It seems reasonable to assume that the leap from 4 (Constellation, a sub-K) to 10 (K, FF) is a sign for further crew size increases. However, SC focuses on small-scale fights, leaving a rough estimate of 20 for the Javelin (DD), 30 for CLs, 40 for CAs and CVs and around 50 for BBs.
  • Small-scale fights probaly also mean that we shouldn't be planning to have more than 100 people in the same area at once. For now.
  • Economy and trade have been discussed here and there. So far we know about Voxel-based mining, fuel mining, industry and trading. Industry will be done through managing planetside (confirmed) factories and trade will be limited to buying from and selling to NPCs as far as I know.
  • People won't do exclusively one thing all the bloody time. Hasn't happened in traditional MMOs, definitely hasn't happened in EVE, which is as similar as it gets to SC ATM, whether people like it or not.
  • It will be possible to capture stations in the PU.

 

So, without further ado, this is what I have:

 

Possible Branches

 

As far as branches go, these come to mind:

Command, Military, Freelancing, BH, Mercenary work, Scouting and Exploration, Infiltration, Industry, Logistics, Trade, Mining. As some of these will probably be more attractive than others, I was thinking about merging and condensing them, more on that below.

 

Structure 1

This idea is based on condensing the branches into Military, Auxiliary and Commerce Divisions:

Military: Main Assault and Defense force, kind of stays within the vicinity of AJSA HQ.

Auxiliary: Mercs, BHs, Freelancers, Scouts, Explorers, Spies. Basically anyone who wants to go out and experience everything.

Commerce: Industry, Logistics, Trade and Mining. Centralised "money" division that helps to keep tabs on our financial situation.

 

This structure has very approximate member allotments and features rather vague, but pre-set subdivisions. This means that individual units can be easily split up or extended pre-release. However, this also means that we need more staff as the currently planned units may become excessively large and hard to manage by one person.

 

Structure 2 Linkage

Developed on top of Structure 1, this one gets a lot more specific and detailed. There are only one big Military and a smaller Commerce part to the structure. This is done keeping in mind that Commerce requires a lot of patience and spreadsheets, thus significantly lowering the amount of interested and dedicated players. However, Structure 2 also drastically reduces the demand for staff. Instead of Structure 1's generally pre-set units with theoretically indefinite members, Structure 2 takes another approach:

 

There are 4 "Fleets":

Fleet 1 includes the largest vessels in the AJSA and serves as a dedicated unit in emergencies, with dedicated crews that work together most of the time.

Fleet 2 includes everyone by default. New members start out here. It is subdivided into smaller units with pre-set tasks.

Fleet 3 is comprised of "member units". While Fleet 2's units are meant as default places for people to go until they know what they actually want to do, Fleet 3 consists solely of "groups of buddies". For example, if you and your 3 friends want to be pirates, you form a member unit and you get transferred as a flight from Fleet 2 to Fleet 3. You are then assigned to any Squadron that has slots open for new flights. When big events or ops are called, you'd be flying with those squads but otherwise be free to do whatever you please.

Fleet 4 or "Angry Inc" would basically be the Commerce Division.

 

So, Structure 2 is more immersive, requires less staff and gives an overview of who's playing with whom and whom to talk to, albeit it is more complicated than just having three branches.

 

Structure 3

We've got one Fleet. Everyone is in one big unit. People can form their own Flights and Squads and be listed separately from the big blob.

 

Structure 4

What Wyrg said. See above link.

 

To sum it up:

ZthnUpH.jpg

 

 

Fleet Composition

Of the currently announced ships, I have spared some thought as to how to use the individual hulls:

 

Scouting: Aurora ES, MR, LX, 300i, 350R, M50, Avenger Trainer, Aurora LN, Origin JUMP, Mustang

Light Duty: 315P, Anvil Carrack, Xi'an Scout

Medium Duty: Hornets F7A, F7C-M, Avenger, Scythe, Gladiator, P-52, 325A, Gladius

Advanced Duty: Herald, Cutlass, Constellation, F7C-S, F7C-R

Heavy Duty: Retaliator, Idris-M, Bengal, Javelin

Mercantile: Aurora CL, F7C Hornet, Freelancer, Caterpillar, Starfarer, Idris-M, Banu Merchantman, Surveyor, Orion

 

Ranks

We're now getting into the fluff / design / immersion part. Ranks can be organised semi-separated from AJSA ranks, with one AJSA rank equalling many SC ranks to allow for guild-only promotions. Current ideas include allusions to IRL Military, Business, Roman and Feudal structures. I propose the following as far as AJSA, Military and Commerce ranks are concerned:

 

Lord Commander - Grand Admiral - Chairman

Council Member - Admiral - CEO

Commander - Vice Admiral - VP

Officer - Rear Admiral - Director

Sergeant - Commodore - Department Director

Sergeant - Captain

Sergeant - 1st Lieutenant

Sergeant - 2nd Lieutenant

Veteran - Ensign - Supervisor

Veteran - Midshipman

Veteran - Warrant Officer

Member - Chief Petty Officer - Employee

Member - Petty Officer

Member - Master Seaman

Member - Leading Seaman

Member - Able Seaman

Member - Seaman

Recruit - Recruit - Applicant

 

Names

As far as naming conventions for ships and awards are concerned, things are similar to what was said about Ranks. They are very much fluff, but can increase immersion and motivation dramatically. Here are some ideas.

 

So far, nothing of this is set in stone (as I said, this is far too early), but feedback is always appreciated. Us enforcing structures you guys don't like isn't going to help anyone, so if everyone thinks something sucks, changes will be made. Now is your chance to voice your opinion! It's only going to get harder to change stuff the closer we get to PU release.

Ysnar, BlackOpsElf, Dyzzles and 2 others like this

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I like structure 2, it gives the people who know which part on the game they want to focus on military or commerce a place to operate in (fleet 1/4). And those who want to be jack of all trades or want to just "gear up" in any way a place to be with people who are like minded (fleet 2/3) 

 

The other structures make you choose a specialization  and i think there will be plenty of people (including myself) who just want to do all kind of things. One day i'm in a pvp mood, the other day i just want to fly some calm traderoutes or explore while watching youtube or a streamer.

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I think that structure 4 is great... it allows for flexibility within the departments.  For instance, aspiring miners such as myself can also dedicate some of their efforts to salvaging or hauling if they are short of manpower... or the attack squads can be temporarily repurposed into defense if need be.

Weynard likes this

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I think that structure 4 is great... it allows for flexibility within the departments.  For instance, aspiring miners such as myself can also dedicate some of their efforts to salvaging or hauling if they are short of manpower... or the attack squads can be temporarily repurposed into defense if need be.

 

I think that over all, all but No. 3 emphasize a strong division of labour, with 2 offering the most freedom of choice and individualisation for groups of buddies and 1 and (particularly) 4 having the clearest divisions. I would say that whatever happens, a main military unit would be comprised of our high DPS vessels (captains willing) and fighter escorts. These units (if we choose to go into sovereignty warfare, which I think we will have the numbers for) would be floating about our HQ, with some of their crew in other parts of the galaxy. These ships would be slightly reduced in combat capability without an actual purpose to serve (as in, Call To Arms), so they would definitely be open to escort and patrol missions if industry oriented players need help with a dangerous task.

 

All units, regardless of whether we choose to classify them as general spheres of interest or actual wings/squads/flights with set interests (which I think would be really cool, if complex), would have one general task to fill. This would make sense because once the members have found their "true calling" with one unit they would specialise long-term with the ability to help newbies choose a path. So, it's not like units would be "forced" to do a certain job 24/7- that doesn't even work in EVE and those guys go in balls deep erryday. It's more like setting strategic goals for your unit or transferring into a unit whose job you like and then going in that general direction. I think that No. 2 emphasizes this best because it allows for separated training in small groups, rather than in the big units of No. 1. In my opinion, No. 4 goes in the same direction as No. 2 with regards to pooling similar resources together (which is great) but is almost too hard on the separation. It definitely has some merit though.

 

I just don't like No. 3 because that's how it's usually done with the "lets-go-make-a-generic-guild" feel to it. I also think that 4 improves on the intended design of 1. Currently I'm a bit split between 2 and 4 with a tendency towards 2 for the big focus on splitting the guild up into sensible parts with set daily responsibilities instead of big bits that are harder to manage.

 

EDIT: Think of it this way: With No. 2 you choose a unit that does what you like best. Within that Fleets' vertical organisation, flexibility is a given. The more often or the harder you tend to jump into other Fleets' tasks on your "free time" (not including actual inter-fleet cooperation as mentioned above), the more you would probably want to consider changing your unit if you frequently think another one would suit your better. That said, keeping other units at arms' length might be better than "outsourcing" them completly.

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we should also think about how the Squadrons be structured as well . with the Military aspect  and fleets  you need to break them down to squadrons aswell like since idris can hand a squadron of 4 fighters in the hanger you can assign a squadron for each ship also you can assign them to stations we have and escort dutys plus other thing in the verse.  with the DFM going out we should consider making Squadrons early so we can practice  the better we are in dfm till the game comes out the better we will be in the PU  we will be able to have in guild touries private matchs horde mode and more so we can have alot of time to get used to our ships.I have spent the last 5 month looking at all ships specs and squadron formations and menuerves. there is alot to get read for and we also need a area in teamspeak to talk with and talk to ideas about.

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If you're going to start making squadrons, i wouldn't recommend making with only 4-5 people. In the army it's all well and done because they have to be there 24/7 but with players like us who log in when they have the time, it's going to be rare to have the same couple of people from your squadron online all the time. 

 

Maybe if you make teams of 10-15 people who play mostly at the same time and you practice several strategies together split up in groups of 4 with whoever is online from that team.

Ysnar likes this

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I also agree with larger squads to compensate players who are afk or need to go all of a sudden.

 

And now that I think about it... Structure #2 is much more fleshed out than #4.  The reason I stood for #4 initially was because imo, the mercentile/commercial sector would be more effective if the roles slightly (and occasionally) overlapped i.e. one dept giving a helping hand to another from time to time.  If that is possible with #2, then its all good with me.

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I've added the overall spreadsheet for No. 2 to the google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq1m_tPIpvnSdE1xdzRObHoySWRQSnNOZWZMN0R5OUE&usp=drive_web#gid=12

 

It seems confusing at first, but this is how it would work:

The Fleets are broken down into smaller units from the top. This means 2nd Fleet is up at the top. We designate an OIC (Officer in charge) and move on to the 1st Division of Fleet 1, then the 1st Wing, 1st Squadron, 1st Flight.

 

Three flights of 2-10 members each (lead by Members) form a Squadron.

Two Squadrons of 6-30 members each (also lead by members) form a Wing.

Two Wings of 12-60 members each (lead by a Veteran) form a Division.

Two Divisions of 24-120 members each (lead by a Sergeant) form a Fleet.

Three Fleets of 48-240 members (lead by Officers and Commanders, depending on importance and complexity) form the Military Armada, which is lead by the Lord Commander and, in his absence, Mort.

 

The maximum unit sizes grow really big the larger the unit gets, but this also balances out the amount of inactives, especially in Fleet 2, which is the default Fleet.

Fleet 3, which consists solely of people who know each other, will probably consist of smaller units across the board.

Fleet 1 has Flotillas instead of Divisions since it's more of a Navy with bigger ships than Fleets 2 and 3, which are more Air Force oriented.

 

Each unit has the AJSA Rank and name of its OIC, its nickname, its current assignment (those are all exemplary ATM) and the member rosterall bunched up into one location where it's easy to find. If we need more units, we can always add more Divisions at the bottom without disturbing what we have up top.

 

This would usually require a lot of administration by staff, moving everyone around, changing assignments etc. To solve this, I'd propose setting up subforums for the fleets with threads for every sub-unit. Everyone can then find any unit easily and apply for membership or discuss internal stuff. If changes have to be made, the unit leader posts in one central administration thread, requesting changes to be made to his unit. This way, staff knows what to do at all times and just has to apply the changes requested in the thread instead of answering dozens of PMs and new threads every other hour, drastically cutting down the administration time.

 

We can go as hard core or casual as needed here. If you think it's too complicated, Flights could be taken out completely, we could shift towards another structure or we could only make little adjustments.

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Can we possibly make these squadron-specific forums private?

 

As in, private to only the members of that group? Hmm... I see the point and I definitely agree that it would be useful. The thing is, I don't know enough about user groups, but my guess would be that permissions on these forums are set to ranks. I don't know whether we can create enough user groups to make that possible, I'll ask a mod when I see one, hold on. EDIT: No mods on TS as far as I can see, but this is worth exploring.

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i like the new structure thats what i was trying to say what we need to do so im all in

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As in, private to only the members of that group? Hmm... I see the point and I definitely agree that it would be useful. The thing is, I don't know enough about user groups, but my guess would be that permissions on these forums are set to ranks. I don't know whether we can create enough user groups to make that possible, I'll ask a mod when I see one, hold on. EDIT: No mods on TS as far as I can see, but this is worth exploring.

 

The reason I asked was because on PS2 in some of the races we did, there were some people just waiting for us.  So it won't be hard for an org that has wardec'd our org to spy on us constantly.

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The reason I asked was because on PS2 in some of the races we did, there were some people just waiting for us.  So it won't be hard for an org that has wardec'd our org to spy on us constantly.

 

I've played EVE for five years, and let me say this: Whatever you do, there will be spies. Where I come from, there are people working full-time just administrating their alliances' spies; Where people infiltrate enemies for years before blowing their cover. Organisations require API access to your characters' employment history, skill sheets and bank account and wallet history (sic) to even consider you for recruitment. Nothing of that ever works.

 

If anyone wants to spy on us, they will. We can't help it. Especially with the Goons.

Ysnar likes this

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I have a noob question. I have recently purchased the 5$ commander pass to gain access to some of the dogfighting sesh, but there seems to be no way of doing so. How do you use this pass and gain access to those dogfighting portion of the game. I been looking all over the internet but no luck. plz help. (i have a gamepack yes)

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I have a noob question. I have recently purchased the 5$ commander pass to gain access to some of the dogfighting sesh, but there seems to be no way of doing so. How do you use this pass and gain access to those dogfighting portion of the game. I been looking all over the internet but no luck. plz help. (i have a gamepack yes)

Dogfighting module hasn't been released yet.

Weynard likes this

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It's nice to see people drawing from their experience from EVE and other games where economy and military strength have to be well thought through. But I've mentioned this in a different post, that since this is a pretty much new type of game trying to lock on a specific type of setup for the clan/corp/army is good and all, we just all need to keep an open mind about changes. Progression in SC is going to be incredibly faster than EVE, and because of the skill based nature of the combat, military engagement and smaller strikes can take drastic turns despite preparation and resources.

 

Personally I like option 2, but I feel logistics should be next to if not right under Command since it is going to be a vital part of the clan/corp/army. The most valuable resources in this game are players with experience and adaptability, maybe I'm preaching to the choir but I feel it should be mentioned anyway just so we can discuss and end up on the same page.

 

[EDIT:] I'd just like to flesh out the reasoning for having logistics on par with the Command. In this case I will use the newest Star Trek movie as an example. You remember when they had the Command meeting at the start of the movie? How all the captains brought their second in command? That's kind of what I was thinking of, have each member of the Command have an "assistant" who works primarily within logistics. That way each Commander has a constant flow of information concerning the clan/corp/army resources. This "assistant" would be in charge of individually keeping track of internal and external (enemy, alliance or npc) resources. This way the Command would be constantly informed and could focus their attention to strategy, and would be a huge time saver since you would not need to have separate meetings with the logistics division itself.

In addition, this would also be a good way of keeping sensitive information out of the public forums and website. Minimizing risk of exposure through espionage. Since the logistics division would be in charge of managing all internal information, and they would pretty much be handpicked by the command.

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I agree a transport division can be considered vital to the survival of the combat division, but there are a few things you might want to consider.

  • Putting any particular unit closer to command than others seems unfair.
  • Other commerce departments, especially trade, and even military subdivisions such as an elite squadron make for equally valuable advisors to command.
  • The approximate staff distribution plan for Structure 2 has five people on High Command; one each from Fleets 2-4, Mort and then Joe. This way, the OIC of Angry Inc. would be able to make himself heard as far as logistics are concerned. It would be his responsibility to keep tabs on the operations and limitations of his unit.
  • On another note, large scale transport might not be necessary in the beginning as we might not have the required funds or station capture might not be in, further weakening the position of the Logistics OIC. As the PU progresses, we will see how important Logistics turn out to be... So far, the cargo system appears highly sophisticated.

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I understand, and the point wasn't really to take away people from Command or adding to them. But my suggestion for having an assistant for logistics (like a second in command) was more for convenience and rapid response. Two distinct examples would be:

1. During Command meetings, the assistant/advisor would provide logistics information to the Commander privately and individually (maybe through skype or teamspeak whispers) so he wouldn't have to look up things on a website or a spreadsheet. Having this set-up would increase accuracy in intel because it allows for corrections if information is different. This would also allow for more effective micromanagement since you could distribute specific tasks for each, like focusing on a specific faction, or system. That person would then be in charge of gathering intel and presenting it to his respective commander.

2. During missions, he would be in charge of keping the Commander updated on fleet/squad/cargo status giving the Commander a broader situational awareness and allowing for focus on the task at hand.

 

I'm aware that this isn't typically what logistics do, but it would give a more exciting job description for an otherwise dry field of expertise. I'm also aware that there wouldn't be much to do for this role at the beginning of the game, since the clan/corp/army would first have to situate it's position in the universe and decide on what the overall focus of the group would be.Again this is just a suggestion and I appreciate that you didn't out right shut it down.

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I suppose it's worth keeping this in the back of the head, but I'm not entirely sure whether it will be necessary.

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I've played EVE for five years, and let me say this: Whatever you do, there will be spies. Where I come from, there are people working full-time just administrating their alliances' spies; Where people infiltrate enemies for years before blowing their cover. Organisations require API access to your characters' employment history, skill sheets and bank account and wallet history (sic) to even consider you for recruitment. Nothing of that ever works.

 

If anyone wants to spy on us, they will. We can't help it. Especially with the Goons.

I can confirm this, played EVE and there were Spies all over the place. Alliance had them in Goons and Goons had them in Alliance.

 

Its been so long tho .. feels like i played EVE in a past Life ...

Anyway i cant wait for SC :)

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I can confirm this, played EVE and there were Spies all over the place. Alliance had them in Goons and Goons had them in Alliance.

 

Its been so long tho .. feels like i played EVE in a past Life ...

Anyway i cant wait for SC :)

Didn't Mr. Roberts say they were adding a spying element to SC? If so then SC will make EVE look pretty tame.

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I'm trying to get a grip on how switching occupation would work within the organization.

Let's say I wanted to both be in a fleet and run some trading routes from time to time. Would I be switching from a 2nd/3rd fleet group to the trading team in angry inc.? Or when I would like to go exploring, would I switch my fleet group's activity to exploration?

(I'm using the organization type 2 here)

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I'm trying to get a grip on how switching occupation would work within the organization.

Let's say I wanted to both be in a fleet and run some trading routes from time to time. Would I be switching from a 2nd/3rd fleet group to the trading team in angry inc.? Or when I would like to go exploring, would I switch my fleet group's activity to exploration?

(I'm using the organization type 2 here)

 

The idea is that if you have a primary focus, you would belong to the respective units in 2 or 4. That doesn't mean you're restricted to that style of play, it just means that everyone can see what you like doing the most and which specific elements of the game you know more than others.

 

Say you need your stuff shipped to our current HQ from trading Hub X. You'd then ask the transport department whether they can arrange for the items to be moved. If you need advice on how to fly X ship, you ask the dogfighting units, if you have questions regarding Weapon A, you ask the FPS guys.

 

This helps in planning big operations since we can easily designate roles and assignments that people like instead of stuffing them in a position they hate. It also makes grouping much easier as you can see others' preferred styles of play.

 

Fleet 3 is for groups of people who don't necessarily like one certain style of play but like playing together in a particular circle of others. These don't have to have a permanent assignment. So, while in Fleets 2 and 4, you'd be sorted according to your task preference, Fleet 3 allows you to sort yourself based on people you like.

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Now that you explained it a bit more... this is a pretty good way to organize the fleet as it promotes communication between members and units so all could be pretty much on the same page... and making the concept of going lone-wolf seem like not a smart idea.

Weynard likes this

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Is the game going to provide some kind of "simulation" for the clan to run practice dogfights? Or are we gonna have to risk our ships when we practice?

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