• Welcome to the Angry Joe Show Army!

    Join our community of gamers passionate about our community and our hobby! Whether it's playing, discussing, or watching games, regardless of platform, genre, or location, we have a place for you, always!

  • PS4 Forum

    The AJSA Playstation 4 Division: Game Nights and More!

    The AJSA is on Playstation 4! Join us for weekly Game Nights with a selection of the best games the PS4 has to offer!

  • XBO Forum

    The AJSA Xbox One Division: We Got You Covered!

    The AJSA Xbox One Division is ready to connect with you on XBox Live with a ton of events for the best Xbox games!

  • News Archive

    The Best News from the Best Sites, Every Week.

    The AJSA News Collection Team is hard at work condensing a week's worth of news into one giant-sze digest for you to chew on and discuss! Links to source articles are always provided!

  • More Info

    The AJSA Expeditionary Force: Deploying to Play the Best PC Games!

    The elite vanguard of the AJSA, the Expeditionary Force (EF) chooses a new PC game every week! Join us for weekly events and help decide if the game has a future in the AJSA.

  • The Team

    Streaming Now: The AJSA Stream Team

    Joe can't stream every game, but our talented AJSA Stream Team covers a wide variety of games and personalities! Check them out, and show them some AJSA Love!

  • The Tube

    The AJSA Community YouTube Channel

    Featuring news, gameplay clips, and more from the community! The Community is a chance to showcase the best moments in AJSA Gaming!

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Joda

CryEngine? Who's crying now?

27 posts in this topic

Sorry but given that I suggested way back when that SC should develop it's own Engine rather than spending time and resources on someone else's engine that is, in Mr. Roberts own words 'difficult' and 'tricky', I think the latest delay demonstrates that CryEngine isn't up to the challenge. Either that or Mr. Roberts isn't. Personally I think it has more to do with an Engine that wasn't designed for space. But of course, it was Mr. Roberts decision to use it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't underestimate creating an engine from scratch. If they would have done that we probably wouldn't have seen a hangar module yet or anything else "in game".

Engines are in development for years before a game is being made with it.

CHIEKKU and Weynard like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is supposed to be. I'm going to assume it's being upset over the DFM delay. 

I don't think you understand the difficulty of writing a game engine. As a software engineer, I can tell you it is no trivial task. It's not like dropping buttons into a form in .NET, where the compiler will do all most of the backend code for you. When you make a game engine from scratch, you are making everything:

  • How visuals are rendered (DirectX or OpenGL)
  • How sound is rendered (i.e. XAudio)
  • How input is handled (mouse, keyboard, joysticks, gamepads, Oculus Rift, and everything else people want)
  • How memory is managed at runtime (most frustrating part right here)
  • How multiplayer works (don't get me started on the complexity of a network stack); even companies who have been around for a decade still struggle with this (*cough* DICE *cough*)

People like to complain how long SC is taking. Well, imagine if first they had to write the engine. There's no content creation until this is done, so you can expect the development process to take way longer. How is that preferable? 

There's a reason game developers license an engine: making your own from scratch is absurdly hard and time consuming, especially if you just started your new company and want to focus on making wonderful content. Unless you have a massive team with years of experience, you're better off starting with an engine that already exists.

And, in time, if they want to, they can focus on forking their own engine. It happens all the time. Valve forked the Quake engine to make GoldSrc, and later made Source from that. That makes more sense that starting the game with a blank *.CPP file.

 

Weynard, Lee Scorsby and Icazael like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did someone say it takes years to develop your own Engine? Well, 2 years later and SC still hasn't anything to show for it besides a few hangars! Maybe those 2 years would have been better invested in building something that catered to their needs instead of trying to reinvent CryEngine. All one has to do is take a look at all the bugs the DFM has and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something isn't right - not after 2 years and nearly 50 million dollars! They also missed an opportunity in that people would have been more patient if they were developing their own Engine, but instead we have so called seasoned veterans struggling to customize CryEngine with no end in site. Moreover, Mr. Roberts would have had 100% control over the Engine instead of spending so much time, money and resources improving someone else's.

 

As for the 'making your own (engine) from scratch is absurdly hard and time consuming' argument, CryEngine did it. In fact so did Red Engine, Fox Engine, Frostbite Engine, Unreal Engine, Umbra Engine, Snowdrop Engine, Luminous Engine....and the list goes on! I wonder if they had the 'oh gee....this is too difficult, lets rent another Engine instead' attitude; do we really want a 'this is too difficult' mindset when it comes to game development? Is that how we want developers to approach Star Citizen? If it is then we are on the right track - and the results are definitely showing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • How memory is managed at runtime (most frustrating part right here)

I remember when we had a semester about Objective-C and had to do manual memory management. No iOS for me, just give me Android. xD I can't even imagine how much more detailed it is when building an entire engine...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't think you get how this works dude.

Your comparing building a house with materials to building a  house with bricks and mortar you've made yourself by gathering the clay and turning it into bricks yourself.

Yeah at the end of the day every brick and stone of that house will have been made by your own two hands but it's going to take a hell of a lot longer.

Icazael likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't think you get how this works dude.

Your comparing building a house with materials to building a  house with bricks and mortar you've made yourself by gathering the clay and turning it into bricks yourself.

Yeah at the end of the day every brick and stone of that house will have been made by your own two hands but it's going to take a hell of a lot longer.

I am pretty sure you don't get it. And I am glad those building Engines don't get it either or we would be playing pacman right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a software engineer. I have no idea what's behind building an Engine. I suppose it takes "a lot more time" and " a lot more money" to create an engine from scratch, as was said by purportedly competent members of the community. Thus, I'm fine with CIG using an appropriate existing engine. I'm okay with how the game looks and what gameplay was shown so far. If CIG did write their own engine, it would take longer to develop a game thats slightly better, while with CryEngine we are already getting an amazing game.

 

I'm not going to pull an unreasonable complaint out of my rectum just because I'm upset about foreseeable, engine-related delays I don't know shit about.

Icazael likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm not going to pull an unreasonable complaint out of my rectum just because I'm upset about foreseeable, engine-related delays I don't know shit about.

Yeah but where's the fun in that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a software engineer. I have no idea what's behind building an Engine. I suppose it takes "a lot more time" and " a lot more money" to create an engine from scratch, as was said by purportedly competent members of the community. Thus, I'm fine with CIG using an appropriate existing engine. I'm okay with how the game looks and what gameplay was shown so far. If CIG did write their own engine, it would take longer to develop a game thats slightly better, while with CryEngine we are already getting an amazing game.

 

I'm not going to pull an unreasonable complaint out of my rectum just because I'm upset about foreseeable, engine-related delays I don't know shit about.

Curious, you believe that an Engine built by Chris Roberts would only be 'slightly' better than CryEngine. For someone who admits he has 'no idea what's behind building an Engine' you sure sound reasonable. You must have a really big rectum. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The premise of this "problem" is silly. Homegrown engines are no less susceptible to bugs than licensed engines. Any programmer will understand this. A homegrown engine does not guarantee anything other than more time and more headaches during development.

 

OP, your position is also confused. You are obviously upset about the delays, yet want them to invest in their own engine...which would take more time and resources and would mean the game is released much later. That doesn't make any sense. 

 

Let's remember that this is not your typical AAA game. $44 million in crowdfunding is a drop in the bucket compared to what other studios pump into their games. Mass Effect 3 had a game budget of $200 million, excluding advertising. Battlefield 3's marketing budget alone was $100 million, which doesn't include the budget for the actual game. So, $44 million for everything is not very much at all in perspective. What we have been given for that price is amazing.  

 

If you have a problem with how he's designing the game, then don't invest in it. The rest of us are okay with the direction Chris is taking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have I missed something? Is Chris Roberts gamejesus? Can he transmute water into code?

Are people finding his likeness in Minecraft and shit?

CHIEKKU likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curious, you believe that an Engine built by Chris Roberts would only be 'slightly' better than CryEngine. For someone who admits he has 'no idea what's behind building an Engine' you sure sound reasonable. You must have a really big rectum. 

 

Have you been involved in the creation of game engines?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt that a company specialized in developing games could just magicly puff a gaming engine into existence, that surpases the engine of a company that is specialiced in developing gaming engines.

The Cryengine is tricky, because it is very powerful. If you wan't a fluent gameplay with millions of polygons, you need to cut back on redundancy. If you cut back on redundancy, the enigine will be less robust. Had CIG made their own engine, they would run in exactly the same dificulties, but they couldn't just call crytec for costumer support.

CHIEKKU likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone appears to believe I am calling for Mr. Roberts to immediately drop CryEngine and start building his own Engine. Please read original post as it is quite clear I suggested 'way back when' SC design an Engine that suited their own needs rather than tinker with one that didn't. Clearly it is too late for that now. Also, it doesn't take an engineer to realize that something is wrong when a deadline set by professional engineers is missed by 6 months with nothing to show but a list of bugs. Actually it only takes a little common sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone appears to believe I am calling for Mr. Roberts to immediately drop CryEngine and start building his own Engine.

 

No, we're not. We're just telling you that going with a new engine from the start would have been a bad idea.

 

As for the second part of your post, nobody in this thread said that CIGs deadlines were correctly planned. And, by the way, they have something to show for it. People played a build of AC at PAX, never mind the numerous videos we've seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, we're not. We're just telling you that going with a new engine from the start would have been a bad idea.

 

As for the second part of your post, nobody in this thread said that CIGs deadlines were correctly planned. And, by the way, they have something to show for it. People played a build of AC at PAX, never mind the numerous videos we've seen.

Well, I think it would have paid off in the long run. Sure it would have been difficult and probably would have delayed the game, but then again there might be a myriad micro delays working  with an Engine not up to the task. And that is now what we are seeing. Don't get me wrong, CryEngine is a good Engine but not designed for the kind of stuff Chris Roberts wants; if it was then there would be no need to tinker with it. Moreover if the Engine wasn't an issue, the DFM would not be 6 months behind schedule -  a schedule originally established by SC engineers who were working on CryEngine at the time. 

 

I certainly concede that they have something to show. But I think people are more interested in playing than watching. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think it would have paid off in the long run. Sure it would have been difficult and probably would have delayed the game, but then again there might be a myriad micro delays working  with an Engine not up to the task. And that is now what we are seeing. Don't get me wrong, CryEngine is a good Engine but not designed for the kind of stuff Chris Roberts wants; if it was then there would be no need to tinker with it. Moreover if the Engine wasn't an issue, the DFM would not be 6 months behind schedule -  a schedule originally established by SC engineers who were working on CryEngine at the time. 

 

I certainly concede that they have something to show. But I think people are more interested in playing than watching. 

 

Hold on here...

 

So, an engine 100% up to the task would have produced no issues? I think it has been well established in this thread that creating such an engine is quite frankly impossible. Also, if CryEnginge was not the best choice, don't you think CIG would have chosen another one? There will always be the need to "tinker with" stuff. Bugs and similar issues happen, you don't need to be a coder to be able to see that. Furthermore, don't you think there would be other issues than the engine delaying the game? We only know which bugs persist today, not which bugs they have fixed.

 

You have a point with your closing remark, but I think things are just not as simple as you make them out to be.

CHIEKKU likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough. And of course no Engine is problem free. As for establishing in this thread that an SC Engine would be impossible, I think the only thing we have established is a difference of opinion. To be honest I don't take the number of naysayers as proof of anything. In fact there were so many people against outside designers and a contest that I looked like an idiot for even suggesting such a thing; and I am pretty sure I look like an idiot now. But inevitably might, in terms of numbers, doesn't always spell right.

 

But I think we can agree it is too late unless the bugs keep popping up and fellow citizens become overwhelmed with delays. Only time will tell but who is to say with millions still to be made, and I suspect millions more will, that Mr. Roberts wouldn't have the time, money or resources to build a kick ass Engine. And it wouldn't have to interfere with the present Game development. In fact an Engine could be built completely independent from the game (i.e. Valkyrie). In fact it may have to if things go to potty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have to remember that because it's set in space, it doesn't change what is needed from the game. The game is still on 3 planes, and I only think the major difference from this to a normal flight SIM would be if celestial bodies have an impact on your ship e.g. gravity

I feel that maybe after 5 years or so that the game engine will need to be custom, but atm I don't think the team will have used the cry engine to the max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also like to add that the Procedural R&D Team could be a great opportunity to design a game that suits their needs. Of course a Procedural R&D Team is presently focused on integrating Procedural with standard gaming mechanics but if approached with an open mind it may very well set the stage for an SC Engine. And not necessarily one that is focused 100% on procedural but one that amalgamates standard gaming with Procedural and all the flight mechanics that CIG is struggling to add to CryEngine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree that procedural generation R&D might be useful in engine creation and you might have a point, I don't know enough to say this for certain. Even though I've asked you to explain why you think you're qualified to talk about game engines in such roundabout manners, you haven't done so, which leads me to assume you're merely taking shots in the dark like me. I would thus like to ask you to refrain from presenting (essentially) arbitrary assumptions as if they were facts until such time as you can confirm them. (e.g. "if approached with an open mind" - why are you so flagrantly implying CIG programmers aren't being open-minded? Do you have inside information we don't have access to or are you just that good a coder that you can see such things from gameplay videos and WIP features alone?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Procedural generation is only used to generate landscape/ a world. It has nothing to do with physics and would have completely no effect on the flight model.

 

Even though I don't think it's a very good example, I'll use it because pretty much everyone is familiar.

Let's look at Minecraft, the world is generated at random, but there's still hand made "standard gaming" objects in there, what villages look like isn't completely random, there are templates for that, just like the dungeons/strongholds.

(Minecraft is not a very good example because while it generates the world procedurally, it still has to save it the normal way. Only new area's you haven't been to yet will be generated procedurally.)

 

A better example, but less known game would be Fuel, an open world racing game from a while back with a massive procedurally generated world. (5,560 square miles/14,400 km² entire game uses 4gb of space) It's the same every time you load(or generate rather) the game because it uses an algorithm to build the world around you. Camps and little villages would still be hand-made by artists, but the overall landscape would be generated.

It uses a very big and complex algorithm to generate the right area around you, but if you where to build the world with regular tools it would take up almost 12x the disk space.

 

It's like this that SC could work as well, with massive generated planets with interesting environments to explore while still keeping the high detailed, hand made cities. Though it does sacrifice quality for quantity, and since they take their quality very seriously they probably wont generate entire planets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well there was a funding goal, that involved that CIG will open up a branch that will look into procedural generation to make it possible in LATER implementations of star Citizen to land at any point on the surface of any planet. I guess that's a reaction to Elite: Dangerous and some other indie games who have similar plans...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree that procedural generation R&D might be useful in engine creation and you might have a point, I don't know enough to say this for certain. Even though I've asked you to explain why you think you're qualified to talk about game engines in such roundabout manners, you haven't done so, which leads me to assume you're merely taking shots in the dark like me. I would thus like to ask you to refrain from presenting (essentially) arbitrary assumptions as if they were facts until such time as you can confirm them. (e.g. "if approached with an open mind" - why are you so flagrantly implying CIG programmers aren't being open-minded? Do you have inside information we don't have access to or are you just that good a coder that you can see such things from gameplay videos and WIP features alone?)

Hmmm....so I have to be a scientist to make an observation about science? I have to be a car mechanic to make an observation about cars? I have to be a lawyer to make an observation about an antiquated racist law? I have to be an artist to criticize art? And I am wondering, how much coding has Angry Joe done? Because he is making a LOT of observations about gaming mechanics! Sorry but your argument is unsustainable. Besides, I make my points and people can decide whether they are reasonable or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0