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Ranisel

Difficulty in Video Games

28 posts in this topic

This is partly inspired from a comment exchange on Joe's Outlast II Review: ( Time Stamp: 09:43 )

I think Joe's criticism is completely reasonable but a lot of people actually said stuff like "Well you're playing on the highest difficulty Joe, sheesh modern gamers are so spoiled, such filthy casuals, why play on the hardest difficulty and bitch that it's hard?"

Now... obviously I took some liberties on what was actually said :kappaoj: and I'm paraphrasing even though the original conversation was lost somewhere between mountains of "Do more Angry Reviews" and "Del is fat" which are all *obviously* valid criticisms and have never been said before and thus need to be repeated, you can still see examples of what I mean:

rolx84w.jpg

It's a relatively recent comment ( 1 week ago ) and has a decent amount of likes, which I will personally see as people who agree with his statement.

Now with the proper context provided let me try and tackle this criticism, first of all can we all agree that unless the challenge provided by the difficulty is fair it suggests lazy, or bad design?

Obviously you can make every game hard if you increase every NPC's health and damage tenfold but is that the best design we can muster for the difficulty, is it even good? Specifically in Outlast II that wouldn't make the game harder because, you can't fight back at all, it's run or hide, so how can we make that harder?

Well I pointed out Thief:The Dark Project (Not the ReBoot )

NWy2M3v.jpg

, which as the title suggests is a Stealth game, the difference between Normal and Expert isn't "Guards can now see you through walls and hear you even if you didn't make any sounds"

The differences are much more appropriate, such as:

Total amount of Gold you need to acquire in the Mission in order to proceed

Total amount of Objectives you need to complete in order to proceed, for example on Normal you might find a note suggesting there's a valuable item somewhere around that's not essential or tied to the mission's purpose, and you can choose whether to pursue it as it is a side objective, but on Expert you NEED to do it, as it is counted as a main objective

Total amount of Guards in the mission

You cannot kill ANYONE, which is largely irrelevant as you literally cannot fight your way through the game, you know... because it's an actual Stealth game... but is an inconvenience admittedly 

Placement of gems, pouches of gold and amount of gold are altered, patrols may be changed as to prevent easy and convenient routes... Let me provide an in-game example, notice how on anything less than Expert Basso the Boxman is not even mentioned!

yYJmjAf.jpg

Now notice how none of those changes alter the AI but still make the game's missions harder and longer without creating any sort of "unfairness"? Isn't that objectively a better way to create difficulty? Since it doesn't make the enemies blind and deaf while also doesn't make them like Superman because they have X-Ray vision and super hearing? Doesn't it also cost less of the budget and is generally faster than fiddling with the AI? I suppose there's still a place for such a challenge in the form of handicap, but I think Thief's difficulty is handles much better than Outlast II.

But one could argue that this method is not flawless, as the AI is still competent on all difficulties so even one guard may prove a challenge too great for someone new to the game or genre, there's always one solution though:

VWia5bP.jpg

But in all seriousness I'd counter by asking what being "good" at Stealth games really comes down to? Patience and map awareness, you observe the guard, you take a mental note of his path, wait for him to pass and sneak past successfully, being impatient is actually the source of the so called "bad at stealth" bullshit and people who are impatient are inherently not the targeted demographic of Stealth games, so the problem is non-existent.

Now with the hiding covered *ba dum tss* we can move on to running, how can that be made harder? Well, that's fairly easy, there's a whole genre based around making running hard and convoluted, platforming:

L7DoBDJ.jpg

 Outlast II's take is certainly not as good as it could be, I'm not sure if the confusion on where to run to is intended or not but it's unreasonable to deny it's effect on the difficulty "Oh no, I was seen and now I have to run for my life, oh shit this level is deliberately made like a maze so I don't really know where to run towards" that COULD be fun for a specific level, once or twice but not ALL GAME LONG for sure.

Why would you frustrate the players like that? Especially when you keep in mind that an angry person is less likely to be scared by the game/movie/ETC, and so your Horror game fails, hard. Why would you create the illusion of open ended levels? I often criticize shitty FPS games like Call of Duty for the linear level design, a literal straight line with one turn along the way with some "enemy intel" and a dead end, but that would have been better for Outlast II, because that path you'll need to run through can have obstacles placed on it, and thus make timing important " Oh I pressed jump too soon/too late and I couldn't get past this branch, now I'm caught and dead... " 

Anyway I actually wanted to cover more genres of games such as FPS so we could address "Bullet sponges" and such, but I feel this is already too long and most likely boring, but what do you think? Did Thief nail challenge despite being 19 years old? Or am I just overpraising workarounds due to the technical limitations developers had back then, and most importantly, why? Thanks for reading.

Edited by Ranisel
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Totally with you on Thief, that was a massively impressive game for its day as well in terms of AI.

 

I Said on the topic about Joe's Outlast 2 review, but if what Joe says is accurate, then this is the kind if "difficulty" or "challenge" that is bullshit. Cryptic, trial and error bullshit. No skill, no spacial awareness, no strategy or reflexes, but enough patience to force yourself though the repeated, padded, cryptic bullshit that prays on your natural instincts until you make it through. Demon Souls is one of my least favourite games in the world for the same reasons.

 

I do think difficulty is taken way to seriously sometimes. Alternative difficulty settings exist to give anyone the chance to enjoy the game the way they want. Just because a game has a difficulty setting you don't like (to hard or to easy), it doesn't hurt you! Play the game the way you want. Play on easier settings because you a want a less frustrating experience for the story and atmosphere, or turn it up to test yourself. Either way, don't complain about how others choose to experience a game, it's entitled and stupid.

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I completely agree.  For me their is a difference between difficulty and challenge, you make a game challenging and it naturally becomes more difficult but making a game more difficult doesn't automatically make it more challenging.  

 

Stealth is my favourite style of play because I find challenge of using my wits and not getting spotted much satisfying more satisfying than charging in like Galahad.  I'd say that Thief: The Dark Project is the perfect example that offers an additional challenge in this style by offering additional objectives or by getting you to play a different way, like not killing anyone forcing you relay more on stealth like the developers intended.

 

It feels cheap when games that just simply shuffle numbers like health or damage to re-balance the difficulty.  Sure it makes the game more difficult in that you'll die more often and it will take longer to beat but ultimately the actual gameplay experience is exactly the same so the challenge is the same.  For example in Metro: Last Light the Higher difficulty settings not only effect health and damage but you also get less resources like ammo forcing you to be more efficient and make every shot count.  In Call of Duty (I'm not intentionally picking on COD here, there is tons of games that do this) cranking up the difficulty will give you less health, more enemy's that do more damage but you ultimately play it the exact same way.

 

The thing really drives me nuts though is games where you are forced to die and try again until you find the right solution through trial and error or just get lucky.  Like Demon's Souls where all your doing is repeating the same sections until you get to the next cheap ass death trap and then have to go back to the start and repeat it again.  It's difficult yes but to me that's a fucking insanity test and not a challenge and it's same story with Outlast II.

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have something like Shadow of Mordor which (at least in my opinion) is way to easy and for all wrong reasons!  The AI is so dumb especially when it comes to stealth detection and hordes of enemies can easily be killed by using the same combat finishers over and over.  This is another situation where changing the difficulty does not effect the challenge because regardless of the difficulty setting the AI is still stupid and the same spamming tactics still kill everything almost instantly.

 

I generally find that the harder difficulty settings are the more immersive and enjoyable way to play but if you just want to experience the story line then I don't judge any who plays on lesser difficulties.  My point that you can even on lower difficulty still get a good challenge without it feeling cheap.

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Alternative means of adjustable difficulty are always cool, but I think 'cheap number changing' is flat out  foolish to NOT utilize as well. If you don't like harder modes that only adjust numbers, protip: don't play them. Some people DO enjoy them. I don't know why armchair game designers have to trash something that's optional AND takes almost no time to develop to boot. Making new AI and readjusting the level design, that DOES take time, but slapping a *1.2 on things takes all of one minute.

Sometimes having some extra hp on enemies actually changes the dynamic completely, because many times players get a build or something that allows them to 1 shot or 1 combo enemies, and it's not really a fight but just kind of a speedbumb as they cruise thru a stage, one that doesn't even fight, but just kinda makes them stop running and mash attack 1-3 times and proceed running with absolutely no regard for retaliation or whatever. But if they can survive that initial hit, then all of a sudden you have to worry about their attack range and speed and all that jazz.

Honestly I think the people who complain about such mechanics are just bad and wont admit it to themselves. Take rpgs for example, you can say that having enmies with higher stats doesn't change how you play, it just needs more grinding. This is in fact the lazy way of thinking. Do you strive to beat content leveling/grinding as little as possible? If you fail at a boss or hard part, do you assume 'I need to grind more'? I ask this because I've seen hundreds if not thousands of times where players whine that a game needs grinding too much because they got game-over'd at a certain part and I find that th eir level is in fact much higher than needed or whatever. They just don't want to bother learning to better themselves or the mechanics, blame the game.

Saying Souls isn't a challenge but a test in insanity is bullshit. I'm not saying this as a souls fanboy, but as a human telling another human, who the hell made you the supreme judge of what's challenging and fun and something maddening. Whenever you say things like that, it just makes it look like your patience and respectfulness is shit. I mean if you don't like it, that's fine, but to actually state that something is NOT what people say they like about it, and that it's actually ____.

 

Anyway, back on difficulty. I've been asking for it for years, and I'm actually seeing a few games actually do it. But I would like to see difficulty be player-adjustable beyond easy/medium/hard... But have sliders for all of the variable stats, so that they can adjust it as they see fit to their own personal liking. Maybe they think the game is too easy but the enemies are also a bit bullet spongy, well they can up everything a bit and maybe nerf the enemy hp. Now I'm not saying the alternative means of difficulty that couldn't be adjusted by a simple slider need to go, no they're cool too. But honestly, why not both? don't say development time, adding sliders to variables is piss easy, trust me, I HAVE done programming. Yes it can't be done to some games as mods because they hard-coded numbers sometimes, I have no freakin' idea why game devs hardcode numbers in their games, seriously. Short sighted as hell. But provided they just take the decision to not do that from the start, it wont really increase development time.

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1 hour ago, Shagger said:

I Said on the topic about Joe's Outlast 2 review, but if what Joe says is accurate, then this is the kind if "difficulty" or "challenge" that is bullshit. Cryptic, trial and error bullshit. No still, no spscial awareness, no strategy or reflexes, but enough patience to force yourself though the repeated, padded, cryptic bullshit that payes on your natural instincts untill you make it through. Demon Souls is one of my least favourite games in the world for the same reasons.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Crazycrab said:

The thing really drives me nuts though is games where you are forced to die and try again until you find the right solution through trial and error or just get lucky.  Like Demon's Souls where all your doing is repeating the same sections until you get to the next cheap ass death trap and then have to go back to the start and repeat it again.  It's difficult yes but to me that's a fucking insanity test and not a challenge and it's same story with Outlast II.

Hmm, now I'm not sure if I want to revisit the roots of Dark Souls :D had no idea it was that bad back then!

However even with what you pointed out in Demon's Souls, I think it's admirable that the game just did away with difficulty, at least as far as I know? I guess the philosophy there was... "Well if you're having trouble go farm up some Souls or Titanite to upgrade Stats or Weapon" which is pretty much grinding, which isn't too bad if the game has enjoyable combat.

36 minutes ago, Crazycrab said:

It feels cheap when games that just simply shuffle numbers like health or damage to re-balance the difficulty.  Sure it makes the game more difficult in that you'll die more often and it will take longer to beat but ultimately the actual gameplay experience is exactly the same so the challenge is the same.  For example in Metro: Last Light the Higher difficulty settings not only effect health and damage but you also get less resources like ammo forcing you to be more efficient and make every shot count.  In Call of Duty (I'm not intentionally picking on COD here, there is tons of games that do this) cranking up the difficulty will give you less health, more enemy's that do more damage but you ultimately play it the exact same way.

I completely agree!

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7 minutes ago, Ghaleon said:

Alternative means of adjustable difficulty are always cool, but I think 'cheap number changing' is flat out  foolish to NOT utilize as well. If you don't like harder modes that only adjust numbers, protip: don't play them. Some people DO enjoy them. I don't know why armchair game designers have to trash something that's optional AND takes almost no time to develop to boot. Making new AI and readjusting the level design, that DOES take time, but slapping a *1.2 on things takes all of one minute.

The problems is almost all of the difficulty modes are cheap number changing when it could be something better, for example... more monsters, or faster/respawning monster?Like in the original DOOM?

Could you imagine if in DOOM instead of more demons to swarm you they simply made it so you needed to shoot them more times in order to kill them? That's bullshit, you need a big massacre leaving behind lots of bloody, mangled, bullet-ridden corpses. Sure it would take more time to do that, but it does the game a favor.

9 minutes ago, Ghaleon said:

Sometimes having some extra hp on enemies actually changes the dynamic completely, because many times players get a build or something that allows them to 1 shot or 1 combo enemies, and it's not really a fight but just kind of a speedbumb as they cruise thru a stage, one that doesn't even fight, but just kinda makes them stop running and mash attack 1-3 times and proceed running with absolutely no regard for retaliation or whatever. But if they can survive that initial hit, then all of a sudden you have to worry about their attack range and speed and all that jazz.

But... that's not the player's fault that's a mistake that shouldn't have happened in the first place? At least not in Normal+ difficulty? I mean sorry but if the designers made such a build possible that's their own fault, that sort of thing by definition shouldn't happen in non-easy difficulties? 

 

11 minutes ago, Ghaleon said:

Honestly I think the people who complain about such mechanics are just bad and wont admit it to themselves. Take rpgs for example, you can say that having enmies with higher stats doesn't change how you play, it just needs more grinding. This is in fact the lazy way of thinking. Do you strive to beat content leveling/grinding as little as possible? If you fail at a boss or hard part, do you assume 'I need to grind more'? I ask this because I've seen hundreds if not thousands of times where players whine that a game needs grinding too much because they got game-over'd at a certain part and I find that th eir level is in fact much higher than needed or whatever. They just don't want to bother learning to better themselves or the mechanics, blame the game.

Well RPGs are a whole different story, every game genre has a different preferred ways to enhance difficulty, and just like Stealth games the approach of "more HP/DMG" doesn't really work, for RPGs I think the best difficulty levels should be based on immersion, for example in Witcher 3 Normal+ makes it so Mediating ( which you can do anywhere except around monsters ) doesn't heal you while previously it healed 100% of your health.

Or maybe make it so your character actually needs to sleep? Needs to eat? That kind of thing.

Because I think it should be up to the designers to decide how many times can you whack an enemy for it to die. Make that default and don't touch it through difficulty levels, because no one likes bullet sponges, at least not for regular enemies, cause honestly I felt like some Bosses in Witcher 3 could have had double or triple the health and I would have still enjoyed every moment of it.

18 minutes ago, Ghaleon said:

Saying Souls isn't a challenge but a test in insanity is bullshit. I'm not saying this as a souls fanboy, but as a human telling another human, who the hell made you the supreme judge of what's challenging and fun and something maddening. Whenever you say things like that, it just makes it look like your patience and respectfulness is shit. I mean if you don't like it, that's fine, but to actually state that something is NOT what people say they like about it, and that it's actually ____.

They didn't say Souls games as a whole are like that, just Demon Souls. Also no one is a supreme judge they just shared their opinion, but theyargued their points, pretty well I might add, dying in order to learn in a game which punishes dying isn't good design, not an enjoyable challenge, and by that I mean not for me, and clearly not for them. And let's be honest here, every Souls game has had a couple of bullshit deaths and every single one of them suffers from glitchy hitboxes, most of that isn't a problem since if you reach that spot again you get everything back, except in Dark Souls 2.

23 minutes ago, Ghaleon said:

Anyway, back on difficulty. I've been asking for it for years, and I'm actually seeing a few games actually do it. But I would like to see difficulty be player-adjustable beyond easy/medium/hard... But have sliders for all of the variable stats, so that they can adjust it as they see fit to their own personal liking. Maybe they think the game is too easy but the enemies are also a bit bullet spongy, well they can up everything a bit and maybe nerf the enemy hp. Now I'm not saying the alternative means of difficulty that couldn't be adjusted by a simple slider need to go, no they're cool too. But honestly, why not both? don't say development time, adding sliders to variables is piss easy, trust me, I HAVE done programming. Yes it can't be done to some games as mods because they hard-coded numbers sometimes, I have no freakin' idea why game devs hardcode numbers in their games, seriously. Short sighted as hell. But provided they just take the decision to not do that from the start, it wont really increase development time.

How would you handle Stealth games with sliders? As a concept increasing enemy field of view and area in which they can hear you CAN be executed well and it allows for freedom, but that shouldn't be the main nor only difficulty adjustment. As for RPGs and shooters, sure you can include them there but I feel like the primary difficulty adjustments should be more than increases of Health,Damage or player Handicap. 

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6 minutes ago, Ranisel said:

 

Hmm, now I'm not sure if I want to revisit the roots of Dark Souls :D had no idea it was that bad back then!

However even with what you pointed out in Demon's Souls, I think it's admirable that the game just did away with difficulty, at least as far as I know? I guess the philosophy there was... "Well if you're having trouble go farm up some Souls or Titanite to upgrade Stats or Weapon" which is pretty much grinding, which isn't too bad if the game has enjoyable combat.

 

 

And that brings me onto another reason I hate Deamon Souls. The grinding is infuriating!

 

As im sure you know, one collects souls from enemies as a kind of currency to level up. If you die, you can go back to your body and reclaim half of them, die without claiming then, and you loose them all. Now that's fine in principle,  but in Demon Souls it doesn't work for a combination of reasons. Health power ups in that game are to rare and precious to actully use (making them boderline poinless), so the only other way to recover health is to leave the level and return to the hub. This is something you have to do anyway because you need to go here to spend your souls. However, this means starting the level all over again and this game is ridiculously tight fisted when it comes to leveling up, especially when you are forced to battle the lowest level enimes over and over. You move forward as far as you dare hoping to make it to one of those points to unlock the next area in one good clean run (useually failing to do so), chicken out, go back to the hub, spend souls for a few pixels towards the next level, go back in, rince and repeat. This turns an already frustrating game in an unbearably tedious and boring one as well. Fuck, I hate that game.

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On 2017-5-15 at 9:53 PM, Ghaleon said:

Saying Souls isn't a challenge but a test in insanity is bullshit. I'm not saying this as a souls fanboy, but as a human telling another human, who the hell made you the supreme judge of what's challenging and fun and something maddening. Whenever you say things like that, it just makes it look like your patience and respectfulness is shit. I mean if you don't like it, that's fine, but to actually state that something is NOT what people say they like about it, and that it's actually ____.

 

On 2017-5-15 at 10:20 PM, Ranisel said:

They didn't say Souls games as a whole are like that, just Demon Souls. Also no one is a supreme judge they just shared their opinion, but they argued their points, pretty well I might add, dying in order to learn in a game which punishes dying isn't good design, not an enjoyable challenge, and by that I mean not for me, and clearly not for them. And let's be honest here, every Souls game has had a couple of bullshit deaths and every single one of them suffers from glitchy hitboxes, most of that isn't a problem since if you reach that spot again you get everything back, except in Dark Souls 2.

 

As Ranisel pointed out I was talking specifically about Demon's Souls which GENUINELY is just linear corridors full of cheap death traps.  There are many that don't feel the same way and that's fine.  The latter games and most of the others that have since come out in the same style have put more of the focus on combat, blocking, evasion correct use of items and so on and thank fuck for that!  YOUR the one that needs to learn more respect pall, especially if you think me or anybody complaining about a game being cheap, grinding or repetitive like this is just the product of me being bitter because I suck at it.  I have an opinion that I expressed, it doesn't mean I'm appointing myself "supreme judge of what's challenging and fun", in fact I didn't say anything insulting or degenerating towards the fan base at all.

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I apologize, I actually enjoyed Demon's souls before dark souls so I kinda intermingle the two, so when I read Demon's souls, I just instinctually thought dark souls which is the 'popular' way of referring to the whole series, and though you were griping about the whole series. Personally I don't think demon's souls was as bad as you make it out to be (dark souls and Diablo 3 were the 2 and only games I day one midnight release got because I loved diablo, and dark...fuck... demon's souls sold me so much).

 

I can respect if someone doesn't like the game, or the series, but to flat out say it's not a challenging game that is fun when it so clearly is a successful series. Yeah, I wont agree to it ever. Frankly I'm not convinced I have the wrong opinion even if yours is specific to demon's souls either, but I can't be certain either, so eh. I mean I have no interest in star wars, and it seems juvinille to me, but I wouldn't say it isn't entertaining, that it only panders to people who are still mentally in grade 2 or something.... not only wouldn't I say it, but I don't even think it.

 

back to difficulty though, I think people misunderstood my point. You folks seem to be arguing that by having the 'cheap' difficulty adjustment systems, the other ones you guys prefer cannot exist. I specifically mentioned why not both. Honestly, I think game devs resort to the 'cheap' ones because they can't be bothered to implement the m ore work-intensive ones either because of budget, time, management, or maybe they just DGAF. But if they have the time to implement the 'better' options, why stop implementing the quick easy and 'cheap' one too when it's so easy and fast? Some people can enjoy it. I mean one example I can think of is Zelda and the minish cap. I really didn't enjoy it because it was *WAY* too easy, and one of the reasons why it was was because enemies hit like wet noodles... no joke, even bosses  would hit for like a QUARTER of a heart. I did an experiment, and I was able to slay many of the bosses making absolutely no effort whatsoever to dodge any of their attacks, but would just  stand in front of them swinging (after doing necessary things to expose their weak points or whatever...while not bothering to dodge attacks too btw), and alot of the time they were owned. I particularly thought that 2nd fire dragon boss thing was a cool concept, but the amount of damage it put out just plain was not enough.

 

You  can argue what is good difficulty and what is bad all you like, but at the end of it, nobody has ever addressed why simply having the option available to the player to adjust it to their liking is bad.

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5 hours ago, Ghaleon said:

I can respect if someone doesn't like the game, or the series, but to flat out say it's not a challenging game that is fun when it so clearly is a successful series.

Whether it's successful or not is irrelevant, Call of Duty is probably the most successful game while simultaneously being one of the worst, bottom of the barrel shitty ones.

5 hours ago, Ghaleon said:

I mean I have no interest in star wars, and it seems juvinille to me, but I wouldn't say it isn't entertaining, that it only panders to people who are still mentally in grade 2 or something.... not only wouldn't I say it, but I don't even think it.

Why not? If that's what you think you should say it, maybe to you it does pander to 2nd graders at worst a rabid fan might lash out and at best a fan might ask you in a civil manner why you think that, like... do you think I'm intimidated by dudebros and 12 year olds when I shit on Call of Duty? No, it's what I think, everyone's free to challenge that.

5 hours ago, Ghaleon said:

You  can argue what is good difficulty and what is bad all you like, but at the end of it, nobody has ever addressed why simply having the option available to the player to adjust it to their liking is bad.

 

17 hours ago, Ranisel said:

 I suppose there's still a place for such a challenge in the form of handicap,

I didn't word it right, but with that sentence I meant that we could essentially have both.

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On 5/15/2017 at 2:26 PM, Shagger said:

 

And that brings me onto another reason I hate Deamon Souls. The grinding is infuriating!

 

As im sure you know, one collects souls from enemies as a kind of currency to level up. If you die, you can go back to your body and reclaim half of them, die without claiming then, and you loose them all. Now that's fine in principle,  but in Demon Souls it doesn't work for a combination of reasons. Health power ups in that game are to rare and precious to actully use (making them boderline poinless), so the only other way to recover health is to leave the level and return to the hub. This is something you have to do anyway because you need to go here to spend your souls. However, this means starting the level all over again and this game is ridiculously tight fisted when it comes to leveling up, especially when you are forced to battle the lowest level enimes over and over. You move forward as far as you dare hoping to make it to one of those points to unlock the next area in one good clean run (useually failing to do so), chicken out, go back to the hub, spend souls for a few pixels towards the next level, go back in, rince and repeat. This turns an already frustrating game in an unbearably tedious and boring one as well. Fuck, I hate that game.

 

I would counter your statement. Grass farming in Demon's Souls is fairly easy to do. Typically any enemy that will drop it once will always drop that if your willing to do a few kill runs. In fact that's one of the primary changes made by From Software between Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, reduce the number of available healing items. It can get bad in Demon's Souls where you max all the different variety of healing grass and nothing is dropping you.

The other thing is the game allows for back stabs to be fairly easy and easier than Dark Souls series. Did you bother with back stabbing? I take it you don't enjoy the Dark Souls series to begin with lol.

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1 hour ago, Wade D McGinnis said:

 

I would counter your statement. Grass farming in Demon's Souls is fairly easy to do. Typically any enemy that will drop it once will always drop that if your willing to do a few kill runs. In fact that's one of the primary changes made by From Software between Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, reduce the number of available healing items. It can get bad in Demon's Souls where you max all the different variety of healing grass and nothing is dropping you.

The other thing is the game allows for back stabs to be fairly easy and easier than Dark Souls series. Did you bother with back stabbing? I take it you don't enjoy the Dark Souls series to begin with lol.

 

No, I haven't played Dark Souls, and because of that and the fact Demon Souls came out first any comparison is irrelevant to me in this discussion.

 

Just about every enemy I encountered in the time I could bear with the game were locked to the direction of where you enter their "zone" either at a vantage, on the ground in front of the approach or (and this is typical of the unfair bullshit) in a blind spot where they see you before you have a chance to turn around and know they are even there. So no, I didn't use backstabbing very often because I hardly ever had a chance to use it.

 

Sorry in advance if I sound like an ass hole here, but I usually play rouge-like characters in RPG's, so I know how these systems are supposed to work. My experience in other games may actually be my be my problem because the natural instincts I built through playing other games were absolutely prayed on in Demon Souls leaving nonsensical, cryptic exploits as the only way to win. A good example of this is the very first enemies outside the tutorial. The first time I played the games, I decided to try the what I think was the Knight class, you know, heavy sword shield. So I approach the skeleton (yeah, that's right, a fucking skeleton. What meeting did they have where someone said "Let's go hardcore with the most cliché design we can think of) from the front because, like I said, him and his two buddies and locked facing toward you with no other approach. He starts a big, but clumsy looking swing of his sword, so as a heavy, what do I do? Well block, of course! So I do, take a little damage, and that's fine, but he parried away and knocked of balance. So, what to do now? Lower my shield and strike? That's what you do, right? Now I'm gonna describe what happens next in spoiler bar so people reading, it they dare, can try this if they want, and I double fucking dare you to do exactly this. Just employ the perfectly normal instincts and strategy of swordplay. Here goes;

 

Spoiler

The very instant you lower the shield, without even a frame of animation to separate the two actions, the skeleton goes from falling back off balance, to a lightning fast "combine harvester" sequence of sword slices that tear at you and takes away almost half your health. This slow, clumsy skeleton, who was holding his sword like it's weight of a coal train, is in the blink of an eye swinging it around like a damb samurai conveniently just as you lower your shield to strike. This sound fair to you? Remember, this is the FIRST enemy in the game outside the tutorial.

 

As for the healing grass, all I can say I remember those items drops being very rare and on random enemies. If you had read and understood my post, you would know I did do multiple runs though sections over and over and I didn't see what your talking about with that, but I confess I might be wrong on this.

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So wait you went to Shrine of Storms first after the tutorial on the first playthrough? Well that was a bit suicidal to begin with I'd say since the skeletons are indeed rather quick and agile enemies and commonly the Shrine of Storms is the last area that is dealt with when going by order of the stones from left to right beginning with the Boletaria archstone.  While I doubt that changes perception of how you view the game but I thought I would share that info if not known since your post kind of suggests you never beat the game but ultimately I have no idea how far you ever got into the game itself unless you actually say. Though I will say I do agree that the skeletons were probably the most royal pain in the ass enemies in the game and were best to ignore after awhile and just run past them.

 

But that isn't why I came around, merely came to state that I have to agree with Wade on the healing items, they drop rather frequently. Again can't say much on it though depending on knowning what 'zones' you did do before you decided to quit the game.

 

Now on the topic as a while just so happen read this article a few days a go that was a rather interesting take on what could be done in the future to replace the idea of a difficulty setting:

http://fextralife.com/video-games-need-a-mechanical-complexity-slider-not-a-difficulty-slider/

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On 5/17/2017 at 2:47 PM, Shagger said:

 

No, I haven't played Dark Souls, and because of that and the fact Demon Souls came out first any comparison is irrelevant to me in this discussion.

 

Just about every enemy I encountered in the time I could bear with the game were locked to the direction of where you enter their "zone" either at a vantage, on the ground in front of the approach or (and this is typical of the unfair bullshit) in a blind spot where they see you before you have a chance to turn around and know they are even there. So no, I didn't use backstabbing very often because I hardly ever had a chance to use it.

 

Sorry in advance if I sound like an ass hole here, but I usually play rouge-like characters in RPG's, so I know how these systems are supposed to work. My experience in other games may actually be my be my problem because the natural instincts I built through playing other games were absolutely prayed on in Demon Souls leaving nonsensical, cryptic exploits as the only way to win. A good example of this is the very first enemies outside the tutorial. The first time I played the games, I decided to try the what I think was the Knight class, you know, heavy sword shield. So I approach the skeleton (yeah, that's right, a fucking skeleton. What meeting did they have where someone said "Let's go hardcore with the most cliché design we can think of) from the front because, like I said, him and his two buddies and locked facing toward you with no other approach. He starts a big, but clumsy looking swing of his sword, so as a heavy, what do I do? Well block, of course! So I do, take a little damage, and that's fine, but he parried away and knocked of balance. So, what to do now? Lower my shield and strike? That's what you do, right? Now I'm gonna describe what happens next in spoiler bar so people reading, it they dare, can try this if they want, and I double fucking dare you to do exactly this. Just employ the perfectly normal instincts and strategy of swordplay. Here goes;

 

  Hide contents

The very instant you lower the shield, without even a frame of animation to separate the two actions, the skeleton goes from falling back off balance, to a lightning fast "combine harvester" sequence of sword slices that tear at you and takes away almost half your health. This slow, clumsy skeleton, who was holding his sword like it's weight of a coal train, is in the blink of an eye swinging it around like a damb samurai conveniently just as you lower your shield to strike. This sound fair to you? Remember, this is the FIRST enemy in the game outside the tutorial.

 

As for the healing grass, all I can say I remember those items drops being very rare and on random enemies. If you had read and understood my post, you would know I did do multiple runs though sections over and over and I didn't see what your talking about with that, but I confess I might be wrong on this.

First the area you are in is typically late game. It's an area that you ether have the skill to overcome or the gear/level to overcome. Yes Demon's Souls allows players to choose whichever starting zone they want to go for. This can and most likely caused frustration for players who don't grasp the idea of "try another zone".

Some will say that the game gradually gets harder from zone one to zone five, you were in zone five.

You could also buy healing items (different variety of grass) from vendors.

As to their attack animation, they are designed to be a challenge and an enemy not to be taken so lightly. Meaning some enemies need to be pulled one at a time (body pulling or range attacks). They do have a substantial weakness, the mace. Any blunt damage will destroy these guys fairly easily. 

It sounds like your idea of fun isn't with the Souls games or games like it. 

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33 minutes ago, Wade D McGinnis said:

First the area you are in is typically late game. It's an area that you ether have the skill to overcome or the gear/level to overcome. Yes Demon's Souls allows players to choose whichever starting zone they want to go for. This can and most likely caused frustration for players who don't grasp the idea of "try another zone".

Some will say that the game gradually gets harder from zone one to zone five, you were in zone five.

 

It's been a while but I know I was only able to access one area the first time I played.  It's the area that Shagger described and it was at the start of the game, there was no choice.

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Just now, Crazycrab said:

 

It's been a while but I know I was only able to access one area the first time I played.  It's the area that Shagger described and it was at the start of the game, there was no choice.

 

That.

 

Now, I dunno why everyone else had a different experiance, but both me and my brother played the game and couldn't find any other level to access at the start other than that one. I'm fully prepared to admit there could be something we missed, but we tried the game separately and we both ended up in the same, overpowering level, so that's bad design either way. Why would it even be possible to access a level that far on right at the start anyway? This isn't Megaman where you test your skills on an option of stages where the challenges differ slighlty, but are all beatable regardless of the order you do them in. The fact I accessed level 5 (or whatever it is) with it being virtually impossible to beat and with no clear indication of that's what i did wrong and with no XP bonus for trying, thus no reward, is just more proof of how bullshit this game is.

 

Not to mention the AI is still bullshit, cryptic, instinct praying, so I still stand by my statements.

 

Even what im being told isn't consistent. Wade, you say this was zone 5, but my online looks ups say its zone 4, so even after a decade the internet is in dispute over this! 

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1 hour ago, Shagger said:

 

That.

 

Now, I dunno why everyone else had a different experiance, but both me and my brother played the game and couldn't find any other level to access at the start other than that one. I'm fully prepared to admit there could be something we missed, but we tried the game separately and we both ended up in the same, overpowering level, so that's bad design either way. Why would it even be possible to access a level that far on right at the start anyway? This isn't Megaman where you test your skills on an option of stages where the challenges differ slighlty, but are all beatable regardless of the order you do them in. The fact I accessed level 5 (or whatever it is) with it being virtually impossible to beat and with no clear indication of that's what i did wrong and with no XP bonus for trying, thus no reward, is just more proof of how bullshit this game is.

 

Not to mention the AI is still bullshit, cryptic, instinct praying, so I still stand by my statements.

 

Even what im being told isn't consistent. Wade, you say this was zone 5, but my online looks ups say its zone 4, so even after a decade the internet is in dispute over this! 

Well if what you are describing is correct then you were in World 1-1, Boletaria Palace which yes you are correct, is the only place you can access after the tutorial. The confusion is coming from the fact you mention skeleton enemy as the first enemy you faced outside the tutorial but skeleton enemies reside in World 4-1 (yes this is the right number, not sure how anyone is confusing world 4-1 with 5-1), Shrine of Storms.

Skeletal enemies don't reside anywhere else in the game besides world 4 which is thus where the confusion comes from in this entire conversation.

 

Now to go into detail on being able to access pretty much anywhere upon competition of the first part of Boletaria well I don't see the issue. Most people will assume to progress in a numerical pattern which the game provides going from world 1 to world 2 and so forth. The ability to go to any location allows for the more experience to bypass the other worlds and seek items they desire. It isn't impossible to beat those worlds at low levels just hard especially when one does not know what they are doing. There is no idiication what you did was wrong because it wasn't, you are allowed to go anywhere, you chose world 4-1 and got beat thus telling you that perhaps you should try a different location. The game is based on risk and reward. The bonus XP would be from killing the enemy since they would provide more souls then the usual enemy expected for your level.

 

While I can get where the AI might of pissed you off, no AI is somehow cryptic, they all have a pattern. Of course in frustration it is hard to visualize those patterns though like I said early the skeletons were in deed quite tough enemies.

 

To conclude, and I don't mean this in any way as being mean but ultimately these games are just not for you.

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12 hours ago, argetlam350 said:

Well if what you are describing is correct then you were in World 1-1, Boletaria Palace which yes you are correct, is the only place you can access after the tutorial. The confusion is coming from the fact you mention skeleton enemy as the first enemy you faced outside the tutorial but skeleton enemies reside in World 4-1 (yes this is the right number, not sure how anyone is confusing world 4-1 with 5-1), Shrine of Storms.

Skeletal enemies don't reside anywhere else in the game besides world 4 which is thus where the confusion comes from in this entire conversation.

 

Now to go into detail on being able to access pretty much anywhere upon competition of the first part of Boletaria well I don't see the issue. Most people will assume to progress in a numerical pattern which the game provides going from world 1 to world 2 and so forth. The ability to go to any location allows for the more experience to bypass the other worlds and seek items they desire. It isn't impossible to beat those worlds at low levels just hard especially when one does not know what they are doing. There is no idiication what you did was wrong because it wasn't, you are allowed to go anywhere, you chose world 4-1 and got beat thus telling you that perhaps you should try a different location. The game is based on risk and reward. The bonus XP would be from killing the enemy since they would provide more souls then the usual enemy expected for your level.

 

While I can get where the AI might of pissed you off, no AI is somehow cryptic, they all have a pattern. Of course in frustration it is hard to visualize those patterns though like I said early the skeletons were in deed quite tough enemies.

 

To conclude, and I don't mean this in any way as being mean but ultimately these games are just not for you.

This. lol.

14 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

That.

 

Now, I dunno why everyone else had a different experiance, but both me and my brother played the game and couldn't find any other level to access at the start other than that one. I'm fully prepared to admit there could be something we missed, but we tried the game separately and we both ended up in the same, overpowering level, so that's bad design either way. Why would it even be possible to access a level that far on right at the start anyway? This isn't Megaman where you test your skills on an option of stages where the challenges differ slighlty, but are all beatable regardless of the order you do them in. The fact I accessed level 5 (or whatever it is) with it being virtually impossible to beat and with no clear indication of that's what i did wrong and with no XP bonus for trying, thus no reward, is just more proof of how bullshit this game is.

 

Not to mention the AI is still bullshit, cryptic, instinct praying, so I still stand by my statements.

 

Even what im being told isn't consistent. Wade, you say this was zone 5, but my online looks ups say its zone 4, so even after a decade the internet is in dispute over this! 

Look it sounds like you don't enjoy these types of games from the get go. No matter how I discuss my point, you won't enjoy it. That's fine. 

Yes I made a small mistake with the zone but my comment on what you could have done still rings true. As to your instincts, there is a thing in this world called a feint. 

 

:)-

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First off, I wanna offer a massive thank you to argetlam350, Wade D McGinnis and Ghaleon for offering and delivering a civilized debate on this. Totally serious, thank you. I kinda expected an ignorant and/or arrogant "get gud" kind of responce from defenders and was very pleased by the response i got instead. So once again, thank you.

 

Even so, even if I'm wrong and played the wrong level, the bullshit still stinks here. I'm not gonna repeat my points, but i told the truth as i know it though my best reasoning. Even if I did play level 4 and thus fought through enimies at to high a level right at the start, the strategy is still crypic as hell, the level layout still filled with bullshit traps and earning no bonus for said effort. Maybe I am the idoit here, but that's what progressing in Demon Souls made me feel like, a fucking idiot for wasting my time on it. I enjoy challenging games, but achieving in said game should make you feel empowered for accomplishing (even your said accomplishment won't get you anywhare) rather than a fool for trying in the first place. That's the ultimate sin of Demon Souls. Even doing well in it made me feel fucking stupid. 

 

So, thanks for the counterpoints where I genuinely did learn something, but the explanation of what I thought (and mostly still think) are problems with the game are either still there or have lead to further questions and further problems. So I'm done.

 

If you enjoy Demon Souls, good for you, consider me jealous, but to me it's pile of dung with terrible AI getting away with it because it's "hard". Lazy, unsatisfying, and frustrating beyond maddening. One of the worst games i played on the PS3, and I played that reboot of Golden Axe.

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Anytime. Really never understood the whole 'git gud' thing. I've used it as a joke yes but when people use it to somehow justify their opinion makes no sense. While we might not agree on opinion I do get what you are saying because when I first played Demon's Souls, I was indeed in the same boat. Was at a friends house he told me to try this game out I never heard of and I honestly got stomped, didn't even get to the first boss and said screw it. Then same friend showed me a trailer for Dark Souls and though 'hey this setting looks cool' and got it without realizing same developer of Demon's Souls.

 

Beat Dark Souls and upon learning that it was the same developer decided to give Demon's Souls a go again and enjoyed it. So yeah I do get why some people don't enjoy it and yes I do see that there are some cheap things in Demon's Souls that they did improve upon with the later Dark Souls releases. One thing I will admit that Demon's Souls was poor explaining was the whole Tendancy system which if you didn't understand at the beginning would give new players who stuck with the game a hard time since they would unknowningly go into black world tendancy because of the issue that they wouldn't know that dying in human form while in a level makes it go that way and getting out of black world tendancy is tough.

 

So yeah I get what you are saying just that I don't entirely agree but hey everyone has different tastes and there is no reason to get mad at someone with different tastes and opinions. Rather better to try and understand why they have that opinion and just talk. Much more enjoyable.

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5 hours ago, Shagger said:

First off, I wanna offer a massive thank you to argetlam350, Wade D McGinnis and Ghaleon for offering and delivering a civilized debate on this. Totally serious, thank you. I kinda expected an ignorant and/or arrogant "get gud" kind of responce from defenders and was very pleased by the response i got instead. So once again, thank you.

 

Even so, even if I'm wrong and played the wrong level, the bullshit still stinks here. I'm not gonna repeat my points, but i told the truth as i know it though my best reasoning. Even if I did play level 4 and thus fought through enimies at to high a level right at the start, the strategy is still crypic as hell, the level layout still filled with bullshit traps and earning no bonus for said effort. Maybe I am the idoit here, but that's what progressing in Demon Souls made me feel like, a fucking idiot for wasting my time on it. I enjoy challenging games, but achieving in said game should make you feel empowered for accomplishing (even your said accomplishment won't get you anywhare) rather than a fool for trying in the first place. That's the ultimate sin of Demon Souls. Even doing well in it made me feel fucking stupid. 

 

So, thanks for the counterpoints where I genuinely did learn something, but the explanation of what I thought (and mostly still think) are problems with the game are either still there or have lead to further questions and further problems. So I'm done.

 

If you enjoy Demon Souls, good for you, consider me jealous, but to me it's pile of dung with terrible AI getting away with it because it's "hard". Lazy, unsatisfying, and frustrating beyond maddening. One of the worst games i played on the PS3, and I played that reboot of Golden Axe.

Oh common Shagger, you just gotta get good lol 

 

;)-

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On 5/19/2017 at 5:16 AM, argetlam350 said:

The ability to go to any location allows for the more experience to bypass the other worlds and seek items they desire

But in Dark Souls 1 I have access to at least 3 zones in which I get destroyed, the ghost area in which you need the item to hit them, the skeletons at the very beginning and some gargoyle-dragon-ish things? And I kinda know what I'm doing, I've invested lots of hours in Dark Souls 2 and 3 (and some Bloodborne), but MY problem was that even though I dodge and block the monsters it still takes an absurdly long amount of time to kill just one, especially the gargoyle-like things. So is it really good? I would say not really in my opinion.

However if they become available at the appropriate time, meaning when you don't need to spend 10 minutes to kill one, that would be good, yes, I don't remember having any of those issues in 2 and 3, maybe the combat was a bit slower back in 1 but I felt like almost every area I was in was the "wrong" one for my level.

But I mean, what do I know? I enjoyed Dark Souls II so I'm a heathen >.> :kappaoj:

If you enjoy Demon Souls, good for you, consider me jealous, but to me it's pile of dung with terrible AI getting away with it because it's "hard". Lazy, unsatisfying, and frustrating beyond maddening. One of the worst games i played on the PS3, and I played that reboot of Golden Axe.

You might like later installments in the series though, like I said I don't remember having so many "wrong" options in DS2/3 and Bloodborne and I genuinely feel like players who ignored the whole series missed a lot, I also thought the game is garbage when I first played DS2 and I thought this:

was a decent video discussing why some players might feel like that.

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Yeah I never heard of anyone being unable to select any levels other than the storm-whatever its called thing with the crazy ninja cartwheeling skeletons of doom, at least you weren't forced to play the stupid catwalk blight-town alike zone. ugh. The skeleton one is actually not that bad if you do level up a bit first, but the blightown esque one is always horrible. The only thing I like about it is that the boss drops the materials for the blueblood sword, a weapon no other souls game has an equivalent of (mostly cuz they dropped luck as a stat).

Here's the thing. I love difficulty in games, like love, for real. I find opinions like mine get overshadowed by the modern edgelord 'hurr I'm so cool cuz I can play this hard game!' thing that became trendy with dark souls. I mean I like dark souls, but I do hate that aspect about it. I hate that it created this division in gamers on the subject of difficulty, particularly when it really isn't that hard. Ninja gaiden on the harder modes is harder, Mushihimesama is harder, Dodonpachi is harder. hell, even some 'normal' indie games like Enter the gungeon is probably harder. Normally I don't compare games of completely different genres, but I think it's safe to say those are harder because well...Let's just say my ability to articulate is lacking in demonstrating how obvious it is to me.

But that's not the point. My point is I love hard games, and seeing the whole macho thingcome along and hijack difficulty discussions fucking sucks. It's like another passion of mine. Spicy food, I LOVE spicy food, but more often than not people think my love for spicy food is like some kind of macho show off thing when it's not. I'm not going to order the hottest thing on the menu every time because while I like spice, I also like other foods, and sometimes I want those other ones I like, I don't have a need to 'show off' and get the hottest item. I don't make a point of it in public, I never 'dare' people to eat spicy food, and I never brag about it because it's just a fucking food preference.

I think there's a market of gamers like me who truly enjoy difficulty who don't feel the need to brag about it or something, and it's frusterating as hell that I can't try and argue the perks and benefits to difficulty options and compliment games people are familiar with as a tool to communicate without being given some kind of unconscious judgement of being amongst the 'git gud' brigade.

 

that being said, I think the souls community gets an unfair rep. I've seen many people post on souls fan forums asking for help on various things, and 'git gud' is almost never said unless they are joking about themselves. The only time I see people say 'git gud' without overing advice first is when the user isn't  LOOKING for advice, and just comes on to rant talking about how the game is shit, it's poorly designed, it's unfair, you need luck to win, and your taste is shit for liking it... THATS when 'git gud' happens, and frankly I think that response is POLITE in comparison to what it's addressing.

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On 5/20/2017 at 4:36 AM, Ranisel said:

But in Dark Souls 1 I have access to at least 3 zones in which I get destroyed, the ghost area in which you need the item to hit them, the skeletons at the very beginning and some gargoyle-dragon-ish things? And I kinda know what I'm doing, I've invested lots of hours in Dark Souls 2 and 3 (and some Bloodborne), but MY problem was that even though I dodge and block the monsters it still takes an absurdly long amount of time to kill just one, especially the gargoyle-like things. So is it really good? I would say not really in my opinion.

However if they become available at the appropriate time, meaning when you don't need to spend 10 minutes to kill one, that would be good, yes, I don't remember having any of those issues in 2 and 3, maybe the combat was a bit slower back in 1 but I felt like almost every area I was in was the "wrong" one for my level.

But I mean, what do I know? I enjoyed Dark Souls II so I'm a heathen >.> :kappaoj:

 

You can access New Londo though going to New Londo (the ghost place) but it normally is suggested not to just for the fact there really is no point since the Four Kings are sealed until you get the Lordvessel. Only reason to go there is if you want to find Igward early and drain the place. You can get all the way to Pinwheel which allows the ability to upgrade the bonfire which is nice to get early on among other items that can be grabbed along the way for builds. The Undead Dragon route us pretty much pointless unless you have drained New Londo and want to go through that way or have accessed the forest and have that shortcut working, primarily you open the game with the master key and head to the Great Swamp since it bypasses a good portion of the game with no need to go after the Capra Demon and Gaping Dragon while also bypassing the lag of Blighttown. Again risk and reward and whether you know what you are doing or not but for the most part it is farily straight forward on where to go for beginners I feel. After the swing of things I pretty much always just went down to the swamp and took care of Quelaag swiftly after the gargoyles. New Londo while annoying the ghosts can be easily out run, just the first area with water when you first enter you have to be catious and time rolls. Also yes combat in the first game is slower then the second and third in the series.

 

Dark Souls 2 is not terrible just that I feel it relies to heavily on the idea of groups of enemies near edges to act like a challenge when its more tedious then anything. Then the enemy placement was poor in some areas like how in Dark Souls in Lost Izalith there is a bunch of the back end of undead dragons down there. They make no sense what so ever to be there. Scholar of the First Sin version of the game at least fixed that issue a bit. Then the fact that it has so many weapons and armor. Armor I guess I can live with since I do love fashion (XD) but the problem with weapons was while they had a lot there was only a few to really go after especially for PvP purposes. The spear that had like three different weapon movesets attached to it dominated the PvP scene for ages until they nerfed it. A lot of weapons were just awful and served merely as something to give the collector in everyone an itch to collect everything IMO. Dark Souls 2 did have perhaps the best PvP I will say but PvE it was slightly all over the place for awhile and took time to fix. It also just felt to linear with little vertical to it. The DLC at least fixed that issue though having more complex level design. It's far from a terrible game and I did enjoy it I just feel that if I ranked them Dark Souls 2 would be the lowest one on the least. Of course just my opinion on the matter.

 

11 hours ago, Ghaleon said:

Yeah I never heard of anyone being unable to select any levels other than the storm-whatever its called thing with the crazy ninja cartwheeling skeletons of doom, at least you weren't forced to play the stupid catwalk blight-town alike zone. ugh. The skeleton one is actually not that bad if you do level up a bit first, but the blightown esque one is always horrible. The only thing I like about it is that the boss drops the materials for the blueblood sword, a weapon no other souls game has an equivalent of (mostly cuz they dropped luck as a stat).

Luck is in Dark Souls 3, useful for Bleed Builds and hollow weapons. Just wanted to say that.

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It's quite refreshing to see a civilized conversation about the Soul's series. Sure "git gud" was funny at first, but that joke is as old and stale as that one cereal bar I accidently ate during my Community College years (and it wasn't very pretty). Anyways..

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 2:15 AM, Ghaleon said:

Here's the thing. I love difficulty in games, like love, for real. I find opinions like mine get overshadowed by the modern edgelord 'hurr I'm so cool cuz I can play this hard game!' thing that became trendy with dark souls. I mean I like dark souls, but I do hate that aspect about it. I hate that it created this division in gamers on the subject of difficulty, particularly when it really isn't that hard. Ninja gaiden on the harder modes is harder, Mushihimesama is harder, Dodonpachi is harder. hell, even some 'normal' indie games like Enter the gungeon is probably harder. Normally I don't compare games of completely different genres, but I think it's safe to say those are harder because well...Let's just say my ability to articulate is lacking in demonstrating how obvious it is to me.

But that's not the point. My point is I love hard games, and seeing the whole macho thingcome along and hijack difficulty discussions fucking sucks. It's like another passion of mine. Spicy food, I LOVE spicy food, but more often than not people think my love for spicy food is like some kind of macho show off thing when it's not. I'm not going to order the hottest thing on the menu every time because while I like spice, I also like other foods, and sometimes I want those other ones I like, I don't have a need to 'show off' and get the hottest item. I don't make a point of it in public, I never 'dare' people to eat spicy food, and I never brag about it because it's just a fucking food preference.

I think there's a market of gamers like me who truly enjoy difficulty who don't feel the need to brag about it or something, and it's frusterating as hell that I can't try and argue the perks and benefits to difficulty options and compliment games people are familiar with as a tool to communicate without being given some kind of unconscious judgement of being amongst the 'git gud' brigade.

You and me both. Personally, I like a good challenge as long as it's 100% fair and forgiving. Though I used to be that git gud asshole when Demon's Souls came out, but later on I started to adapt the idea that every gamer has their own way/style of playing a game. For example: I've met a few players that had a really hard time getting through The Binding of Isaac due to the fact that they're new to the game and they're not as skilled as other players. Instead of laughing and saying "git gud", I had a fun time giving those new players some of my own personal tips and tricks. Tips like which character to use based on their playstyle (I also told them to branch out to other characters as well along with some small tips on how to master them. Except The Lost because f**ck him), which items to get (and to avoid), and how to find some secrets that can help them turn the tides into their favor. It's a lot more fun to have conversations with a variety of players, than to have conversations with players of the same type/style.

 

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:36 AM, Ranisel said:

But I mean, what do I know? I enjoyed Dark Souls II so I'm a heathen >.> :kappaoj:

Despite the fact that I've beaten Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1, half of Dark Souls 2, half of Bloodborne, and Dark Souls 3; Dark Souls 2 wasn't that bad and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I liked Dark Souls 2 up to the point where enemies stopped spawning, and the whole Black Gulch bullshit made me stop playing. If anything, I'm more of a heathen by telling people that I didn't enjoy Dark Souls 3 as much as everyone else. I like the atmosphere and all, but the mechanics bugged me the most. For starters, I didn't like the combat mixture between Dark Souls and Bloodborne (if anything, it felt more like Bloodborne with a Dark Souls dress). I think that most enemies within the game are a little too aggressive and can stun-lock you into oblivion. As for poise...don't get me started on the poise. Poise is entirely useless and it makes it incredibly tough for tank builds to get through the game, not to mention the fact that you can't upgrade your armor. I get it.....it's "Fashion Souls", but in RPG 101: functionality is waaaayyyy more important than fashion (to me that is) . Overall, I'm a bit glad that I conqured Dark Souls 3, but it didn't satisfy me as much as Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1.

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